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    Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

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    micahpharris

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    Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by micahpharris on Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:07 am

    Hello all. I've read a bunch of threads about starting judo later in life and have grown comfortable with starting judo at 41. I'm loving it so far but I do have a question based on some throwing we were doing in my last class. I'll caveat this right up front by saying that I'm probably a grand total of five hours into my judo voyage so, if my questions seem simplistic or vapid, they're coming from a noob.

    I'm 6'5" and am having problems with the two hip throws we're learning so far: o goshi and ippon seonage. Specifically, I'm having problems getting low enough and, either as a result of my failure to get low or as part of a seperate problem, I'm keeping my feet way too far apart. My instructors are very nice and patient about correcting my form but, at the same time, they say in a smiling fashion that throws more suited to my body type (tall) will come later. Is that true in your expereinces? In other words, is it your experience that very tall people can be successful judoka or is the art fashioned in such a way as to be highly favorable to shorter individuals? Am I forever relegated to step on the mat and have my opponent know that, becuase I'm tall, I'm going to be limited to a certain limited set of techinques?

    I'm not discouraged and am not at all considering doing something else but I would be interested to hear the thoughts of experienced judoka on the matter. Thanks in advance for your comments.
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    DCS

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by DCS on Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:16 am

    Teddy Riner is taller than you and he does fine.

    Is not that you are too tall, the 'problem' is your uke are too short.


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    finarashi

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by finarashi on Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:21 am

    DCS wrote:Teddy Riner is taller than you and he does fine.

    Is not that you are too tall, the 'problem' is your uke are too short.
    I agree with the above poster. You are not going to master ippon seoi nage fast, but but keep trying. For long people try osotogari and hizaguruma.


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    micahpharris

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by micahpharris on Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:50 am

    Thank you both for your encouragement and responses. I googled Teddy Riner. He's impressive and a good model for me to emulate. He's a little taller than me and in the same weight class as well.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by genetic judoka on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:33 am

    I'm 6'-5" as well. and I came into judo already having bad knees I had exactly the same problems as you when I started.

    a common conversation in the dojo was:
    "this throw isn't working for me"
    "you need to get lower"
    "I can't get lower"
    "keep trying"

    I thought they just didn't understand the nature of my body type. in reality it was me who didn't understand that I just needed more practice. I didn't think there was any chance in hell that I'd ever be good at hip throws, much less seoi nage. fast forward a few years and I can do hip throws and seoi nage on people a full foot or more shorter than me in randori. just keep at it and it'll come eventually. there's throws better suited to tall people (uchi mata, ashi guruma, tai otoshi, most ashi waza), but that does not by any means say that the throws traditionally thought of as better suited to short people are unavailable to you. in fact if you get good at them it'll surprise the hell out of your shorter opponents when you land them. the reason they haven't skipped the lower throws in favor of ones better suited to your height is that if they did, you'd never develop those throws. and you'd be losing out on a large part of the judo experience, part of which is learning to overcome adversity.

    full disclosure: it was a full year and a half after I started judo before I landed my first really clean forward throws in randori (but that was in part due to lack of effort on my part), so when I say it'll come eventually I don't mean by next week all your problems will be solved.

    also, a lot of short people struggle too when first learning those throws so it's not just because you're tall. they're not easy throws.


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    micahpharris

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by micahpharris on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:37 am

    genetic judoka wrote:I'm 6'-5" as well. and I came into judo already having bad knees I had exactly the same problems as you when I started.

    a common conversation in the dojo was:
    "this throw isn't working for me"
    "you need to get lower"
    "I can't get lower"
    "keep trying"

    I thought they just didn't understand the nature of my body type. in reality it was me who didn't understand that I just needed more practice. I didn't think there was any chance in hell that I'd ever be good at hip throws, much less seoi nage. fast forward a few years and I can do hip throws and seoi nage on people a full foot or more shorter than me in randori. just keep at it and it'll come eventually. there's throws better suited to tall people (uchi mata, ashi guruma, tai otoshi, most ashi waza), but that does not by any means say that the throws traditionally thought of as better suited to short people are unavailable to you. in fact if you get good at them it'll surprise the hell out of your shorter opponents when you land them. the reason they haven't skipped the lower throws in favor of ones better suited to your height is that if they did, you'd never develop those throws. and you'd be losing out on a large part of the judo experience, part of which is learning to overcome adversity.

    full disclosure: it was a full year and a half after I started judo before I landed my first really clean forward throws in randori (but that was in part due to lack of effort on my part), so when I say it'll come eventually I don't mean by next week all your problems will be solved.

    also, a lot of short people struggle too when first learning those throws so it's not just because you're tall. they're not easy throws.

    This is super helpful. I really appreciate your input. I'm definitely not going to give up on the throws. I like the idea of an opponent just assuming that he doesn't have to worry about throw X or Y and then being surprised when it happens. I'm going to have to do a lot of uchi komi (is that right?) to get in the habit of putting my feet closer together than I'm currently comfortable with. Years of wrestling and striking arts have habituated me to wider stances.

    Again, thanks for all the comments and encouragement.

    Hanon

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by Hanon on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:51 am

    micahpharris wrote:Hello all. I've read a bunch of threads about starting judo later in life and have grown comfortable with starting judo at 41. I'm loving it so far but I do have a question based on some throwing we were doing in my last class. I'll caveat this right up front by saying that I'm probably a grand total of five hours into my judo voyage so, if my questions seem simplistic or vapid, they're coming from a noob.

    I'm 6'5" and am having problems with the two hip throws we're learning so far: o goshi and ippon seonage. Specifically, I'm having problems getting low enough and, either as a result of my failure to get low or as part of a seperate problem, I'm keeping my feet way too far apart. My instructors are very nice and patient about correcting my form but, at the same time, they say in a smiling fashion that throws more suited to my body type (tall) will come later. Is that true in your expereinces? In other words, is it your experience that very tall people can be successful judoka or is the art fashioned in such a way as to be highly favorable to shorter individuals? Am I forever relegated to step on the mat and have my opponent know that, becuase I'm tall, I'm going to be limited to a certain limited set of techinques?

    I'm not discouraged and am not at all considering doing something else but I would be interested to hear the thoughts of experienced judoka on the matter. Thanks in advance for your comments.

    Hiya,

    PLEASE don't worry about asking questions. Questions are not only welcome but vital for us all at every level of judo.

    The more questions you ask the more you make teachers think and grow themselves. Its a win win situation.

    No problem at all with your height. As mentioned Mr Rinner is taller. I may go as far as to write your height may well prove an asset if you learn good judo and don't rely of strength.

    In a way you have to adapt your judo to your size as we ALL do. Some techniques will feel more comfortable or natural to you than others. I suspect at present no technique feels good as you are very new to the club. BTW welcome.

    Listen to your sensei or coach and please take things easy. You are not going to win the worlds nor an Olympic medal so enjoy your judo, keep safe, keep your partners safe and master your break falls.

    Ground work will feel better for you as your size will be of great help to you when fighting smaller partners.

    What techniques have you been taught so far?

    keep us posted how you develop, nice of you to join us here and make a post.

    Regards,

    Mike



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    micahpharris

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by micahpharris on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:41 am

    Hanon wrote:
    micahpharris wrote:Hello all. I've read a bunch of threads about starting judo later in life and have grown comfortable with starting judo at 41. I'm loving it so far but I do have a question based on some throwing we were doing in my last class. I'll caveat this right up front by saying that I'm probably a grand total of five hours into my judo voyage so, if my questions seem simplistic or vapid, they're coming from a noob.

    I'm 6'5" and am having problems with the two hip throws we're learning so far: o goshi and ippon seonage. Specifically, I'm having problems getting low enough and, either as a result of my failure to get low or as part of a seperate problem, I'm keeping my feet way too far apart. My instructors are very nice and patient about correcting my form but, at the same time, they say in a smiling fashion that throws more suited to my body type (tall) will come later. Is that true in your expereinces? In other words, is it your experience that very tall people can be successful judoka or is the art fashioned in such a way as to be highly favorable to shorter individuals? Am I forever relegated to step on the mat and have my opponent know that, becuase I'm tall, I'm going to be limited to a certain limited set of techinques?

    I'm not discouraged and am not at all considering doing something else but I would be interested to hear the thoughts of experienced judoka on the matter. Thanks in advance for your comments.

    Hiya,

    PLEASE don't worry about asking questions. Questions are not only welcome but vital for us all at every level of judo.

    The more questions you ask the more you make teachers think and grow themselves. Its a win win situation.

    No problem at all with your height. As mentioned Mr Rinner is taller. I may go as far as to write your height may well prove an asset if you learn good judo and don't rely of strength.

    In a way you have to adapt your judo to your size as we ALL do. Some techniques will feel more comfortable or natural to you than others. I suspect at present no technique feels good as you are very new to the club. BTW welcome.

    Listen to your sensei or coach and please take things easy. You are not going to win the worlds nor an Olympic medal so enjoy your judo, keep safe, keep your partners safe and master your break falls.

    Ground work will feel better for you as your size will be of great help to you when fighting smaller partners.

    What techniques have you been taught so far?

    keep us posted how you develop, nice of you to join us here and make a post.

    Regards,

    Mike


    Thanks for this. I am in a beginner class, which is a sort of on-ramp to the regular senior judo class. My class is just five others and myself and we meet only once a week for an hour. At the end of eight weeks, we can join the regular senior class, which meets more frequently. We have one session left and we've been introduced to o goshi, ippon seonage, o uchi gari, o soto gari, and de ashi barai. We've also been introduced to kesae gatame and yoko shiho gatame. I've taken to the reaps more quickly as similar techinques appear in the striking art where I have a black belt. Some of that muscle memory, though, is what is making some of the judo footwork feel unnatural to me. I'm sure that, over time, I'll be able to train the muscles to respond to the seperate situations seperately so that there is no muscular cognitive dissonance.
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    rjohnston411

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by rjohnston411 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:52 am

    I am a mere 6'1", but what others have said rings true. I started in October and only now am I starting to feel a little more comfortable.

    It will come, don't worry!

    Hanon

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by Hanon on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:00 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:I am a mere 6'1", but what others have said rings true. I started in October and only now am I starting to feel a little more comfortable.

    It will come, don't worry!

    You are too tale for your height!

    Mike


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    rjohnston411

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by rjohnston411 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:23 am

    Hanon wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:I am a mere 6'1", but what others have said rings true. I started in October and only now am I starting to feel a little more comfortable.

    It will come, don't worry!

    You are too tale for your height!

    Mike

    I what?

    Hanon

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by Hanon on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:48 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:I am a mere 6'1", but what others have said rings true. I started in October and only now am I starting to feel a little more comfortable.

    It will come, don't worry!

    You are too tale for your height!

    Mike

    I what?

    When? Shocked

    Mike


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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:10 pm

    Our Friend Judo Turtle is almost 6"6" and his brother is just about 6"00" IIRC,
    I dont have a problem throwing people this tall, but it terrifies me to be thrown from this height. What a Face

    charlietuna

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by charlietuna on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:48 am

    I am 6'4" tall and about 290lbs on a good day. I am 2 inches taller than ANYONE in class, but much taller than most in the class. I also outweigh everyone by at least 70 pounds. For about 3 years, I didn't even bother trying to learn throws like Seoi Nage because it was just too hard for me to get down on that level. What I found was a way to get down low and for them to come to me.

    This might sound elementary for some, but I only recently realized how much this helped. I'm just going to use seoi nage for this example. If you're doing a standard Seoi Nage, you're going to be pulling their right arm with your left hand as you go in and get under their right arm. That arm that you still have a hold of, is of tremendous importance and power. By lifting and pulling way out, you do two things. Firstly, you off balance them forwards, which is the point of the throw, but the second thing it does is gets them just a little higher off the ground, and pulls you a little lower. I honestly believe this to be the most important part of the throw.

    The second thing, which I'm again sure you've been taught, is that you shouldn't go in, then drop to the height you need. My instructor always said that your entry should look like an airplane taking off instead of a helicopter. If when you take that first step, you're already pretty low, that pull will bring them up a lot higher than you might think and make it not seem so hard. Way easier to stand up from that semi crouch position than to go down into it.

    GregW

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by GregW on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:58 pm

    I'm 6'1" but, getting low enough to throw shorter people was a challenge at first, too. I used to practice the exercises shown here on this video link between sessions:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE-TFSCLUNw

    You can use your belt or rubber workout bands. What I used to do was tie my belt to a pole and practice positioning for seioinage. I'd start with the belt at shoulder height and then, after a few minutes of repetition, I'd lower it a few inches. Each time I lowered it, I'd have to get a little lower to fit in. Over time, I became more comfortable getting lower in the throwing position and when I'd do the throws in randori, they were more effective.


    Last edited by genetic judoka on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:30 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : properly embed video)
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    micahpharris

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by micahpharris on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:02 am

    charlietuna wrote:I am 6'4" tall and about 290lbs on a good day. I am 2 inches taller than ANYONE in class, but much taller than most in the class. I also outweigh everyone by at least 70 pounds. For about 3 years, I didn't even bother trying to learn throws like Seoi Nage because it was just too hard for me to get down on that level. What I found was a way to get down low and for them to come to me.

    This might sound elementary for some, but I only recently realized how much this helped. I'm just going to use seoi nage for this example. If you're doing a standard Seoi Nage, you're going to be pulling their right arm with your left hand as you go in and get under their right arm. That arm that you still have a hold of, is of tremendous importance and power. By lifting and pulling way out, you do two things. Firstly, you off balance them forwards, which is the point of the throw, but the second thing it does is gets them just a little higher off the ground, and pulls you a little lower. I honestly believe this to be the most important part of the throw.

    The second thing, which I'm again sure you've been taught, is that you shouldn't go in, then drop to the height you need. My instructor always said that your entry should look like an airplane taking off instead of a helicopter. If when you take that first step, you're already pretty low, that pull will bring them up a lot higher than you might think and make it not seem so hard. Way easier to stand up from that semi crouch position than to go down into it.

    I had not heard that last part yet (I'm still very new to judo) but it makes good sense. It has also becomine clear to me very quickly that good kuzushi is both very subtle, very difficult, and of paramount importance. If I read you correctly, I think your second paragraph speaks to that.
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    micahpharris

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by micahpharris on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:06 am

    GregW wrote:I'm 6'1" but, getting low enough to throw shorter people was a challenge at first, too. I used to practice the exercises shown here on this video link between sessions:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE-TFSCLUNw

    You can use your belt or rubber workout bands. What I used to do was tie my belt to a pole and practice positioning for seioinage. I'd start with the belt at shoulder height and then, after a few minutes of repetition, I'd lower it a few inches. Each time I lowered it, I'd have to get a little lower to fit in. Over time, I became more comfortable getting lower in the throwing position and when I'd do the throws in randori, they were more effective.

    Thank you for this. I'm going to add a uchikomi station to my home gym.
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    NittyRanks

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by NittyRanks on Wed May 15, 2013 6:39 am

    I do the above practice like in the video without a band but with a belt. I think tall people really have a hard time in martial arts. I did TKD for 30 years and when I was an instructor a lot tall guys had a hard time with things because of the time it took to execute techniques. Sometimes it takes them longer to do things due to height.
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    Dutch Budo

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by Dutch Budo on Wed May 15, 2013 7:00 am

    I started at age 6 and I was a late bloomer. So most of my prehistoric judo career, I had a small man´s game. Lots of shoulder throws and hip throws. But then I started growing fast until I reached the height of 1m92. I had a hard time reinventing my game. Luckily I had a good base to build on, and nowadays I use lots of ashi waza and some sutemi waza to my advantage. Plus ofcourse ne waza where I was unbeaten as a judoka (only lost to throws occasionally), and now a purple belt in BJJ.
    Tall guys like us have advantages over small guys, but you can only exploit those when you have build a solid base from which you can develop your own game.


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    micahpharris

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    Update

    Post by micahpharris on Wed May 15, 2013 7:11 am

    Thanks for the replies. I've been at it a little longer now and am slowly finding some things that work for me. Being tall is well suited to the ashi game and I'm having some success with de ashi barai and even more with sasae tsurikomi ashi. My instructors have also started me learning koshi guruma even though its from the next section of the gokyu.

    As for other MA, I haven't had any issues with height in striking arts (kung fu) or wrestling. Its the prevalence of the forward and hip throws in judo that were discouraging me. I'm starting to learn that a number of advanced judoka only have a handful of techniques that they can execute with a high percentage of success against a similarly skilled opponent; they may know the entire gokyu but they are effective with a small percentage of it. That makes more sense to me. Seonage will never be my go-to throw, but I can get proficient in its use and judo is varied enough to have other throws that are more suited to my age and body type.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by genetic judoka on Wed May 15, 2013 7:16 am

    the other thing to consider is that in learning throws that you may never use, you're also learning what the beginning of an attempt at executing that throw looks like and as such it will help you defend against those throws when others try them on you. so it is by no means a waste of time to learn throws better suited for other body types, as you may eventually encounter those body types in shiai.


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    micahpharris

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    So true

    Post by micahpharris on Wed May 15, 2013 7:32 am

    genetic judoka wrote:the other thing to consider is that in learning throws that you may never use, you're also learning what the beginning of an attempt at executing that throw looks like and as such it will help you defend against those throws when others try them on you. so it is by no means a waste of time to learn throws better suited for other body types, as you may eventually encounter those body types in shiai.

    Absolutely true. While seonage will never be my favorite throw, a ton of people seem to use it in competition and I probably will look like a good candidate for being thrown by it. Best for me to be able to feel that coming.
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    JudoStu

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by JudoStu on Sat May 18, 2013 2:31 am

    micahpharris wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:the other thing to consider is that in learning throws that you may never use, you're also learning what the beginning of an attempt at executing that throw looks like and as such it will help you defend against those throws when others try them on you. so it is by no means a waste of time to learn throws better suited for other body types, as you may eventually encounter those body types in shiai.

    Absolutely true. While seonage will never be my favorite throw, a ton of people seem to use it in competition and I probably will look like a good candidate for being thrown by it. Best for me to be able to feel that coming.
    I was late to Judo myself (started at 37)and at 6ft 3 I can understand where you are coming from but don’t worry there are lots of throws in Judo which suit all different body types.
    I keep an online training blog which you might find useful/interesting here http://stuartjudo.blogspot.co.uk/
    All the best


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    micahpharris

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by micahpharris on Sat May 18, 2013 4:05 am

    JudoStu wrote:
    micahpharris wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:the other thing to consider is that in learning throws that you may never use, you're also learning what the beginning of an attempt at executing that throw looks like and as such it will help you defend against those throws when others try them on you. so it is by no means a waste of time to learn throws better suited for other body types, as you may eventually encounter those body types in shiai.

    Absolutely true. While seonage will never be my favorite throw, a ton of people seem to use it in competition and I probably will look like a good candidate for being thrown by it. Best for me to be able to feel that coming.
    I was late to Judo myself (started at 37)and at 6ft 3 I can understand where you are coming from but don’t worry there are lots of throws in Judo which suit all different body types.
    I keep an online training blog which you might find useful/interesting here http://stuartjudo.blogspot.co.uk/
    All the best

    Thank you! I've just glanced at the blog so far but Its great!

    Rightintheface

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    Re: Is there such a thing as too tall for judo?

    Post by Rightintheface on Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:48 am

    My very best friend is 6'8 and can osoto gari me through the floor. The best instructors I've worked with began by teaching me things suited to me. However, not being a dan grade, I can say that maybe actual instructors may frown on that practice.
    Personally, while I would want to eventually learn all the throws, I would appreciate having a small set of go-to throws better suited to me.

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