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    Which would you be more surprised to see?

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    Which would you be more surprised to see?

    [ 15 ]
    75% [75%] 
    [ 5 ]
    25% [25%] 

    Total Votes: 20
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    Taiobroshi

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    Which would you be more surprised to see?

    Post by Taiobroshi on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:23 pm

    I find this question more interesting than "Which is better?" because it draws out what you think rather than what you think you know. It doesn't matter who they are, what the tournament is, or even if they have cross-trained- you are the one who has the reaction. The reaction is a projection of your feelings about the two sports. For example, if you had a high level of shock it indicates that you believe "that wasn't supposed to happen." Place yourself in that scenario and think about how you would rationalize it- would you assume that the person cross-trained or that the person was taught sufficiently well in tachi waza and ne waza by teachers within their own sport?

    I'm on study break so I don't have time to type my own response yet, but I will later. Cheers. study

    -B
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Which would you be more surprised to see?

    Post by nomoremondays on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:26 pm

    I assume the answer is yes but just to clarify, you mean using 2013-2016 IJF rules for judo right?

    Edit: re-read your post and since this is about 'feelings' , have voted without waiting for your response. I have put in A. If you are interested in why I will expand on it but felt maybe you would prefer my reasoning not effect other respondents so early in the game.
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    Quicksilver

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    Re: Which would you be more surprised to see?

    Post by Quicksilver on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:04 pm

    I'm not particularly inclined either way. Each outcome seems unlikely but not to the point where I'd be shocked to see either happen, for a variety of reasons, particularly since there are so many unknown variables at play. For example, apparently newaza is declining in prominence in Judo, however none of the clubs at which I train or have trained give the impression of disregarding it at all, so clearly matters like this vary significantly from club to club; though as a theoretical discussion we're dealing with two arts in practice it is about two people and there are more variables involved with that than I have time to list; the outcome could also be influenced by how much the players know about each other and their attitudes towards each art (if the Judo black belt in the first scenario knew that the person he or she was facing was a BJJ practitioner with no training in Judo it might be enough to make him or her complacent, which could work in the BJJ practitioner's favor, and visa versa); and so on.

    Anyhow, it's an interesting question, and I'm curious to see how this topic and associated poll develops. It would also be interesting to have some actual data against which we may compare results to see just how realistically-based or otherwise peoples perceptions are, but I really doubt such data is available and if it was that in itself would probably be cause for mild concern.
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    seatea

    Posts : 211
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    Location : England.

    Re: Which would you be more surprised to see?

    Post by seatea on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:54 pm


    Emanuele2

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    Re: Which would you be more surprised to see?

    Post by Emanuele2 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:30 pm

    The first one.
    Judo has good ne waza, but bjj tachiwaza isn't so good.
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    sodo

    Posts : 168
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    Location : Europe

    Re: Which would you be more surprised to see?

    Post by sodo on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:00 pm

    Quicksilver wrote:I'm not particularly inclined either way. Each outcome seems unlikely but not to the point where I'd be shocked to see either happen, for a variety of reasons, particularly since there are so many unknown variables at play. For example, apparently newaza is declining in prominence in Judo, however none of the clubs at which I train or have trained give the impression of disregarding it at all, so clearly matters like this vary significantly from club to club; though as a theoretical discussion we're dealing with two arts in practice it is about two people and there are more variables involved with that than I have time to list; the outcome could also be influenced by how much the players know about each other and their attitudes towards each art (if the Judo black belt in the first scenario knew that the person he or she was facing was a BJJ practitioner with no training in Judo it might be enough to make him or her complacent, which could work in the BJJ practitioner's favor, and visa versa); and so on.

    Anyhow, it's an interesting question, and I'm curious to see how this topic and associated poll develops. It would also be interesting to have some actual data against which we may compare results to see just how realistically-based or otherwise peoples perceptions are, but I really doubt such data is available and if it was that in itself would probably be cause for mild concern.

    agreed

    atb

    sodo


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    heikojr

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    Re: Which would you be more surprised to see?

    Post by heikojr on Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:19 am

    The problem with this is that most people on this site are judoka. A judoka thinks that his judo should beat a BJJ person standing because that's what they train to do and not an area that the BJJ person specializes in. On the same hand, judoka doesn't just dabble in ground work, he plays on the ground as does a BJJ person, only the BJJ person specializes in it.

    Naturally, i would be more surprised if the BJJ person throws the Judoka for ippon. Just as i would be surprised if the Karate person threw a Judoka for ippon, or the TKD person did, ect.

    heikojr
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    Taiobroshi

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    Re: Which would you be more surprised to see?

    Post by Taiobroshi on Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:51 pm

    Hey guys! I'm glad some of you have grasped the point of this topic, which is to uncover the reasoning behind person biases towards one art vs. another. Obviously this site is all judoka as heikojr stated, but that is not a problem. Anybody can answer and discuss a question about "surprise" or "expectations." The question is vague on purpose, to save you the trouble of deeply analyzing your instinctual reaction to either scenario. After said reaction, how would rationalize what you just saw?

    In my case, I am much more likely to assume that a BJJ player who has thrown a judoka for ippon has cross-trained than vice-versa. My perception of BJJ players (as well as judo players who are focused on newaza), is that they tend to have a compulsive obsession with the details of groundwork. The feedback loop of newaza is both smaller and easier to understand than that of tachi waza, meaning that the experience of learning newaza feels more rewarding. Tell a person who has done BJJ for one year and a person who has done judo for one year to write down what they've learned and you'd probably find the BJJ'er will have more to write about, even though they will have logically learned an equivalent amount of "stuff." Groundwork gives you more to think about, but if that goes too far you don't end up with enough time to properly practice stand up technique. The way I've seen stand up treated in BJJ is a speed bump towards entering into groundwork, which is why things like pulling guard become prevalent in competition even if their utility in other contexts is low.

    That's my line of thinking, as a shameless moocher of the University BJJ club! As far as my reaction to seeing a judo player submit a BJJ black belt, I would be most if they submitted their opponent from the bottom... especially at high-levels, even BJJ black belts have trouble submitting off their backs (most subs come from mount/the back).

    Gus

    Posts : 136
    Join date : 2013-03-01

    Re: Which would you be more surprised to see?

    Post by Gus on Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:17 am

    Its obvious really. "A lot of" Judo clubs spend 50% Newaza 50% standing , or maybe 40% 60% - all BJJ clubs Ive been to its 90% time spent on ground work 10% standing if that .
    All it proves is that the more time you spend doing something the better you get at it.

    PointyShinyBurning

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    Join date : 2013-02-13

    Re: Which would you be more surprised to see?

    Post by PointyShinyBurning on Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:54 pm

    B) Would be much more surprising because "black belt" is a higher rank in BJJ than Judo. If the question was "world class competitors" my reaction would be reversed.

    Since both styles segregate tournaments by rank, the thought experiment is somewhat meaningless. I'm not sure on what level "instinctual reactions" are more interesting than a reasoned response.

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