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    charlietuna

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    Illegal submissions

    Post by charlietuna on Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:54 am

    So, I like to look online and take BJJ classes for a nice infusion of techniques into my judo. A lot of the time, I'm finding these things during my off time from Judo. There are a number of techniques that have either stated that they are a choke instead of a crank, or they'll just call something an armbar. I'm aware that in Judo we can only attack the elbow joint, so I was wondering if you guys had seen any of these moves in a tournament setting that they allowed to continue?

    Kimura
    Omopolata
    D'Arce or Brabo choke
    Monopolata (like an omopolata but they're on their back)


    Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. I know some of them, like a Kimura are legal in competition, but you have to be careful how you apply it, because it can be either an elbow or shoulder lock. Any thoughts on some of these other ones?

    Dave R.

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by Dave R. on Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:02 am

    charlietuna wrote:So, I like to look online and take BJJ classes for a nice infusion of techniques into my judo. A lot of the time, I'm finding these things during my off time from Judo. There are a number of techniques that have either stated that they are a choke instead of a crank, or they'll just call something an armbar. I'm aware that in Judo we can only attack the elbow joint, so I was wondering if you guys had seen any of these moves in a tournament setting that they allowed to continue?

    Kimura
    Omopolata
    D'Arce or Brabo choke
    Monopolata (like an omopolata but they're on their back)


    Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. I know some of them, like a Kimura are legal in competition, but you have to be careful how you apply it, because it can be either an elbow or shoulder lock. Any thoughts on some of these other ones?
    Omoplata = sankaku garami. I think some officials would make a mistake in getting the call right in a competition.
    Wouldn't the Brabo choke be classified as sankaku jime? Granted, the legs aren't used but it's still a triangle choke.

    genetic judoka

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by genetic judoka on Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:30 am

    some of them are legal (I've heard refs report back from a clinic saying the new interpretation does not allow the 'kimura' if the hand goes behind uke's back but people on the other forum disagreed with me), just like many throws are technically legal. it's a question of whether a local ref would recognize it as being legal. as a rule when dealing with non elite refs, just think "if it looks like a neck crank, they treat it like one" same goes for shoulder locks. in the upper levels the refs ought to recognize borderline things as legal, but it's a risk you have to be willing to take try it at the local level.


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    accident_prone

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by accident_prone on Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:54 am

    what about the bicep crusher? i'm under the impression it's legal as it attacks the elbow.

    genetic judoka

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by genetic judoka on Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:11 am

    I've been told it's illegal. and it's a shame too.


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    jkw

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by jkw on Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:24 am

    charlietuna wrote:
    Kimura

    I like to use sankaku turnover if someone is turtled up. In randori, I will often finish this with ude-garami to uke's free arm if they leave it available (which I understand is called a kimura in BJJ, although maybe not from this situation?). However I generally avoid this in shiai as I've had a bad experience with a referee interpreting this as a shoulder lock.

    hedgehogey

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by hedgehogey on Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:52 pm

    The D'arce is legal.

    Ricebale

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by Ricebale on Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:27 pm

    News to me the kimura is illegal, hammer lock is more likely illegal.

    charlietuna

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by charlietuna on Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:16 pm

    So, I understand that on the surface, many of these are legal. Often times though, when we start applying them, we have to do things to get the person to tap that might start making them illegal.

    The Kimura if not anchored properly, can be pushed real high up and sort of turn into a hammerlock or something. When it's like that, it's attacking the shoulder, not the elbow.

    The D'arce is by all accounts, an arm triangle choke. The problem is, when you dump someone on their side and start rotating around to finish it, if you put your hips into the motion, it starts to put the same torque on their neck as a guillotine would.

    I'm not really sure about the omopolata and those sorts of techniques, because I've never seen anyone successfully apply it in a tournament.

    PointyShinyBurning

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by PointyShinyBurning on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:19 am

    charlietuna wrote:
    The D'arce is by all accounts, an arm triangle choke. The problem is, when you dump someone on their side and start rotating around to finish it, if you put your hips into the motion, it starts to put the same torque on their neck as a guillotine would.
    Travis Stevens won a fight at the last Olympics with a guillotine, I think they're uncommon in Judo but not illegal?

    tafftaz

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by tafftaz on Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:09 am

    The "guillotine" choke is not illegal itself if the choke is done correctly. It becomes illegal as soon as the attacker starts cranking up and causing a neck lock. Fine lines indeed for this particular waza.

    genetic judoka

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by genetic judoka on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:05 am

    doing a guillotine = legal.
    leaning back and pulling the arm upward while doing it = illegal.

    if the primary action is cutting off bloodflow = legal.
    if the primary action is trying to rip uke's head off = illegal.


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    Wandering WB

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by Wandering WB on Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:00 am

    Hey, Genetic. Here is my $2
    Well, my understanding is that to attack the shoulder joint in judo, you have to claim you are attacking the elbow. :/

    Omoplata has a nice reverse armbar/sweep to armbar or triangle/choke options. All of those are 100% legal in judo. Monoplata is something I never use, period, because it's a total d-k move. Kimura can be passed in front of the face to take the opponent's back, alternatively, and this is what I am going to play with soon, let them pass your guard, but maintain the kimura grip to roll them over by bridging into then away from them. D'arce and Brabo are just head and arm chokes, can be used with or without the Gi. Without the Gi make sure your forearm, your wrist is higher than your elbow. Also, push their head down when doing it from sidemount in order to grip your hands.

    genetic judoka

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by genetic judoka on Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:32 am

    well the thing is, I could do an ankle lock and claim to be attacking the elbow, and still get a DQ. it doesn't matter what you think you're doing, or claim you think you're doing. if I blatantly punch you in the face during a match, but say I was going for a grip, it doesn't matter.

    also like I'd said in my first post, there's a lot of 'legal' things I'd never try in a local shiai, because it's a question of whether a local ref will recognize that what you're doing is borderline but legal. I could go into x guard in shiai and not be breaking any rules, but might get DQ'd in a local shiai for trying to do a leg lock even if I claim (even legitimately so) to never have had any intention of doing finishing it.

    it's a very slippery slope, and it's IMHO poor taste to recommend people trying these things, based on them being technically not illegal.


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    Wandering WB

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by Wandering WB on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:28 am

    well the thing is, I could do an ankle lock and claim to be attacking the elbow, and still get a DQ.
    Yes, it seems to be referees know the difference between the elbow and the ankle, but not necessarily the difference between the shoulder and the neck or the elbow and the shoulder. However, since we are on the subject I'd like to point out that Ouchi-gari is, technically, a leglock, since you lock the foot in place. It can be used to break a leg. Also, I'd like to point out that Seoi Nage is technically an armbar, since it can be used to break the arm. I think it even translates as something like Arm Trap Throw. The half guard lockdown is just a calf slicer and has had many knee ligaments torn to shreds. Wrist locks are, fortunately, legal in advanced divisions, but if you compete in beginner or intermediate, be careful about applying them to break your opponent's grip whild going for an armbar. The guillotine might be a touchy subject for the people who have had me gulliotine them, because I alternate between using it as front choke or a neckcrank so you never know which one is coming. The boltlock for the triangle is an interesting alternative to fist pressure on the artery. I did not invent judo or jiujitsu, I just practice them...

    judo66

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by judo66 on Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:34 am

    Kimura= legal (in the back as well if there is a wrist torsion making sure the effect is on the elbow).
    Omopolata= of course it is legal
    D'Arce or Brabo choke= Legal indeed
    Monopolata (like an omopolata but they're on their back= Yep.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by Wandering WB on Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:55 am

    judo66
    Even if you torque the arm for the kimura, it will still most likely break the limb at the shoulder, though not at the joint itself. The pressure is on the part of the shoulder just above the place where the overhook is on the arm, but below the shoulder joint. A few years back there was a thread on jiujitsu forums about a black belt breaking someone's arm with the kimura and not expecting it to break in the region between shoulder joint and elbow joint. Note: shoulder means everything after the forearm.
    How you workout that monoplata is legal in judo is beyond me. It's a shoulder lock/shin choke, although it can be used to sweep... if your opponent is savvy as an uke. Omoplata can be used as a setup for lots of things, but in itself is a shoulder lock.



    judo66

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by judo66 on Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:22 pm

    Wandering WB wrote:
    well the thing is, I could do an ankle lock and claim to be attacking the elbow, and still get a DQ.
    Yes, it seems to be referees know the difference between the elbow and the ankle, but not necessarily the difference between the shoulder and the neck or the elbow and the shoulder. However, since we are on the subject I'd like to point out that Ouchi-gari is, technically, a leglock, since you lock the foot in place. It can be used to break a leg. Also, I'd like to point out that Seoi Nage is technically an armbar, since it can be used to break the arm. I think it even translates as something like Arm Trap Throw. The half guard lockdown is just a calf slicer and has had many knee ligaments torn to shreds. Wrist locks are, fortunately, legal in advanced divisions, but if you compete in beginner or intermediate, be careful about applying them to break your opponent's grip whild going for an armbar. The guillotine might be a touchy subject for the people who have had me gulliotine them, because I alternate between using it as front choke or a neckcrank so you never know which one is coming. The boltlock for the triangle is an interesting alternative to fist pressure on the artery. I did not invent judo or jiujitsu, I just practice them...

    It is always the way somebody will see the technique you are aplying but...although you will put uke's weight on the leg you wish to use the gari it is not a leg lock , yes some people use a leg lock but is it really o uchi gari? Seoi nage a arm bar? the way it is done in judo no, the way it was performed in some of the koryu ju jutsu yes.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:14 am

    Wandering WB wrote:judo66
    Even if you torque the arm for the kimura, it will still most likely break the limb at the shoulder, though not at the joint itself. The pressure is on the part of the shoulder just above the place where the overhook is on the arm, but below the shoulder joint. A few years back there was a thread on jiujitsu forums about a black belt breaking someone's arm with the kimura and not expecting it to break in the region between shoulder joint and elbow joint. Note: shoulder means everything after the forearm.
    How you workout that monoplata is legal in judo is beyond me. It's a shoulder lock/shin choke, although it can be used to sweep... if your opponent is savvy as an uke. Omoplata can be used as a setup for lots of things, but in itself is a shoulder lock.



    Haven't we had this discussion before? Nothing wrong with going over it again for clarification, just "wandering" if you remember?

    It is entirely possible to dislocate the elbow using Ude Garami (Kimua/Painbrush/whatever). I've seen it done and can do it, and have actually done it a couple of times in shiai over the years. Of course, you can crank the shoulder, and some pressure will be on the shoulder in some cases, that's variable.

    I'm well acquainted with the pressure on the humerus while having Ude Garmi applied to me. I've seen spiral fractures of the humerus from either overzalous appliction (in shiai) or when the guy would not submit. It's not, as far as I know, a DQ fif the humerus breaks.








    Wandering WB

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by Wandering WB on Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:30 pm

    Hello, Ben, welcome to this forum.
    Haven't we had this discussion before? Nothing wrong with going over it again for clarification, just "wandering" if you remember?

    It is entirely possible to dislocate the elbow using Ude Garami (Kimua/Painbrush/whatever). I've seen it done and can do it, and have actually done it a couple of times in shiai over the years. Of course, you can crank the shoulder, and some pressure will be on the shoulder in some cases, that's variable.

    I'm well acquainted with the pressure on the humerus while having Ude Garmi applied to me. I've seen spiral fractures of the humerus from either overzalous appliction (in shiai) or when the guy would not submit. It's not, as far as I know, a DQ fif the humerus breaks.


    I can randori newaza as hard as the other guy, but if I were in a judo dojo, I'd generally be careful which of my bjj techniques I use on opponents who are not familiar with them. In six years of training I am responsible for exactly one injury (popped ribs... I don't consider popping an elbow or the ankle an injury since they heal very fast) and that was six months into my training. BJJ very much emphasizes staying comfortable and safe, and keeping your partner safe no matter how uncomfortable he is. The black belt I mentioned in my previous post ended up collecting donations for the guy whose arm he broke AFTER he was told he was being too agressive on an Open Mat and sent away.

    If you know a way to use the kimura/ude garami to dislocate the elbow, then I'd like to learn it because I don't have a clue. I'm not going to be satisfied with the discussion while you claim there is a way to just dislocate the elbow, but I myself can't do it. Either post a video or give a step-by-step. Thank you.

    Ricebale

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:56 pm

    Sakuraba v Renzo Gracie is one of the best elbow dislocations I've ever seen of the ude

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by Wandering WB on Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:05 pm

    Ricebale wrote:Sakuraba v Renzo Gracie is one of the best elbow dislocations I've ever seen of the ude
    Just watched it. Sakuraba switches from ude garame to ude gatame while they are both standing.

    Ricebale

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:02 pm

    Nopo, he doesn't

    techman

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by techman on Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:49 pm

    judo66 wrote:Kimura= legal (in the back as well if there is a wrist torsion making sure the effect is on the elbow).
    Omopolata= of course it is legal
    D'Arce or Brabo choke= Legal indeed
    Monopolata (like an omopolata but they're on their back= Yep.

    Is this topic in the right section? I thought this section was a judo section not MMA.The terminology used is not judo terminology and I for one find it annoying to have judo techniques called by other names. Now I'm sure someone will come on and tell me that the techniques were around long before judo was, but in judo Udegarami is not a Kimura!!He may have used it, but did not create it.

    judo66

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    Re: Illegal submissions

    Post by judo66 on Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:37 am

    techman wrote:

    Is this topic in the right section? I thought this section was a judo section not MMA.The terminology used is not judo terminology and I for one find it annoying to have judo techniques called by other names. Now I'm sure someone will come on and tell me that the techniques were around long before judo was, but in judo Udegarami is not a Kimura!!He may have used it, but did not create it.

    I am not going to argue with you on that topic. I don't use those terms myself. Like others I just tried to give an answer to someone who wanted to know more about judo.

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