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    How does one start "doing" kata?

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    Taiobroshi

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    How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Taiobroshi on Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:51 am

    This has always intrigued me because I rarely run into people who take kata seriously in the Northeast. You would think that the teaching of pre-arranged educational forms would be more standard, but other than Nage no Kata which is used for grading I don't see a lot enthusiasm for this side of Judo. The fact that I've never seen katame no kata outside when it seems directly useful for randori is strange. So basically I'm asking:

    1) What is the "kata culture" like around you?
    2) If there is none, what is your impression of kata?

    Discuss.
    -Ben


    Last edited by Taiobroshi on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Topic title typo.)
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    Blacksmith

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Blacksmith on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:41 pm

    I'm in about the same part of the world as you are, and my experiences have been about the same. There are clinics out there if you look hard. The level of clinician can vary however. That said, since you are in NY (not sure where and I realize it is a big state) I'd try to look up Heiko Rommelmann or Jeff Giunta out in Rochester (www DOT bushidokai DOT net//home) - either could set you straight in a hurry.

    As for kata itself - I'll defer to the experts. Who knows - maybe one of them will pop up over here!
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    Rob GBR

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Rob GBR on Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:59 pm

    (5 years judo in england)
    hmmm kata, ive done set one of nage no kata a couple of times,

    and i'm pretty sure that if i manage to collect enough points for my second dan, i have to learn two bits of "kata" for my theory pass

    ...
    just read that back to myself and noticed a word i'm sure you will find sad Neutral "have to learn"
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    ThePieman

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by ThePieman on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:38 pm

    Unfortunately, unless you belong to a club who has an experienced kata practitioner (rare) you will need to travel.

    If you can gather a few like minded people though this can be fun to do, and maybe one day you will become the kata man.
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    Taiobroshi

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Taiobroshi on Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:44 am

    To add something to the discussion, Oishi Judo in NYC warmed up with Ju no Kata while I practiced there. It was... interesting. I'm very into teaching methods in judo, but it seems like many of you are suggesting travel and isolated practice as a way to learn kata. Even if your dojo had an experienced kata "dude," do you think that kind of instruction fits into the modern way of doing judo classes (2-3 hours a session only?).

    I've had a similar discussion with other young instructors about the costs and benefits of doing separate classes on katame waza as opposed to trying to split it 50/50 in a relatively short session.

    Hanon

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Hanon on Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:48 am

    Taiobroshi wrote:To add something to the discussion, Oishi Judo in NYC warmed up with Ju no Kata while I practiced there. It was... interesting. I'm very into teaching methods in judo, but it seems like many of you are suggesting travel and isolated practice as a way to learn kata. Even if your dojo had an experienced kata "dude," do you think that kind of instruction fits into the modern way of doing judo classes (2-3 hours a session only?).

    I've had a similar discussion with other young instructors about the costs and benefits of doing separate classes on katame waza as opposed to trying to split it 50/50 in a relatively short session.

    Hi,

    Massive can of worms. I will avoid the ramble and get to the point.

    Katame no kata. First series. Osae waza. Tori pins uke in kazure kesa gatame. It is the task of tori to adapt and neutralise all attempts by Uke to escape said hold. Uke should and MUST do all he can to escape. What uke is doing is looking for loopholes in the technique of his tori and escape with vigour. Tori is going to react to those escape attempts and learn how to adapt to any such action on the part of uke.
    If uke can escape he should!

    Kata is not an exhibition of judo. Kata is not a stone written choreographed piece of theatre where each person knows what the other is going to do. Kata is a live work shop where both uke and tori can learn, refine and practice there attacks and escapes.
    Kata can only be of value IF it is taught properly and practiced as it should be.

    In terms of katame no kata. I have a question for you all. Of what significance-value is there to tori holding uke in KKG and uke making three know escape actions? Both acting like dummies and performing nothing more than something that looks like judo? How would that be of benefit? Shiai is not like that and kata is a tool of shiai!

    Toward the last few months of my teaching, one of my pupils took sho dan and during the years running up to this point his uke would do all he could to escape the holds of tori. I have seen tori in tears from frustration thinking he would never get to the point where he could hold his uke for 5 osae waza and maintain that hold despite the great genuine efforts of uke to escape. Time passed and uke started to fail his escape attempts and after several hundred practices tori could hold uke 99% of the time. I then changed his uke!

    I suggest to start you place to one side the reigi and moving actions and concentrate AT FIRST on the bones of the KNK.

    When you advance to the next five, shime waza, ensure your uke never submits until the waza works, same goes for the last 5. THEN study what made them work and what made them fail. Now how can such an exercise NOT be of benefit to randori and shiai?

    NO THEATRE. Not a false move in the series. Make it real and don't make it pretty or ornamental, make it functional and make it work. After some months of this we can discuss the frame work and why that is also vital to the development of the judoka in terms of shiai and randori.

    Here to help if I can,

    Mike
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    Blacksmith

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Blacksmith on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:21 am

    Taiobroshi wrote:To add something to the discussion, Oishi Judo in NYC warmed up with Ju no Kata while I practiced there. It was... interesting. I'm very into teaching methods in judo, but it seems like many of you are suggesting travel and isolated practice as a way to learn kata. Even if your dojo had an experienced kata "dude," do you think that kind of instruction fits into the modern way of doing judo classes (2-3 hours a session only?).

    I've had a similar discussion with other young instructors about the costs and benefits of doing separate classes on katame waza as opposed to trying to split it 50/50 in a relatively short session.

    When I suggested going to a clinic, I was not suggesting that was the ONLY way to learn kata, but I think that it is the same principle as any other type of clinic. You go where the expertise is to learn, and come back to your dojo to refine and share the technique. In my opinion, kata seems to have fallen out of favor other than as a means to promotion - so it is rarely practiced. Because it is rarely practiced, few know it well enough to teach it well... and the circle continues.

    I think that in the dojo, kata probably has a place in the lesson rotation, not sure if it is on a weekly basis as you mentioned.

    I was introduced to kata seriously as an ikkyu who needed it for shodan when the time came. Along the way, my partner and I decided that we liked it, and look at is as an avenue to compete well past our active shiai days. Just my .02 for what its worth.

    Hanon

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Hanon on Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:09 am

    Hi,

    Excuse the awful analogy. Who teaches their baby to hop on the left leg for 20 years then AFTER 20 years start to hop on the Right leg then after the 40 years have past walk ,or try to walk, on BOTH legs? Kata is joined at the hip as two legs are joined and should be taught in parallel with randori and shiai. Legs work best when used as a pair.
    There is zero point in starting to learn kata after ones shiai days are over. A little like buying a retired garage mechanic a complete set of Snapon tools as a retirement present, its just too late.

    If one wastes time practicing some sort of pre arranged false dance routine then removing this from ones training is beneficial, better to practice just randori... If you practice kata, as kata, then you know you have had a bloomin hard worthy work out, not to mention it shows in ones randori Smile

    For judo to grow and develop we need to remove the notion that shiai and randori are for the young and kata is for those who are past their sell by date. Judo, though many layered, is one subject. To over or under practice any section causes unbalance in ones judo. Same in life a healthy diet is key to healthy living.

    Mike
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    Taiobroshi

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Taiobroshi on Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:23 am

    Blacksmith wrote:
    Taiobroshi wrote:To add something to the discussion, Oishi Judo in NYC warmed up with Ju no Kata while I practiced there. It was... interesting. I'm very into teaching methods in judo, but it seems like many of you are suggesting travel and isolated practice as a way to learn kata. Even if your dojo had an experienced kata "dude," do you think that kind of instruction fits into the modern way of doing judo classes (2-3 hours a session only?).

    I've had a similar discussion with other young instructors about the costs and benefits of doing separate classes on katame waza as opposed to trying to split it 50/50 in a relatively short session.

    When I suggested going to a clinic, I was not suggesting that was the ONLY way to learn kata, but I think that it is the same principle as any other type of clinic. You go where the expertise is to learn, and come back to your dojo to refine and share the technique. In my opinion, kata seems to have fallen out of favor other than as a means to promotion - so it is rarely practiced. Because it is rarely practiced, few know it well enough to teach it well... and the circle continues.

    I think that in the dojo, kata probably has a place in the lesson rotation, not sure if it is on a weekly basis as you mentioned.

    I was introduced to kata seriously as an ikkyu who needed it for shodan when the time came. Along the way, my partner and I decided that we liked it, and look at is as an avenue to compete well past our active shiai days. Just my .02 for what its worth.

    I appreciate the responses! I will seek out a kata clinic or two over the next 6 months before I relocate.

    In regards to why it isn't widely taught, do you think part of it, especially in younger players, is adjusting to the expectations of the parents? When they're told "judo is a sport" they immediately have some expectations in that their kid will learn to hit something really hard, learn how to avoid being hit, score a goal, or do something easily recognizable as "good" (as in gymnastics). To some degree American adults are also prone to thinking that and don't inquire about parts of judo that don't fit into those categories (or incorrectly parts of judo to fit those purposes). I've seen great teachers wrestle with correcting an 8-year old who claims they have "won a randori" session because, if you throw someone you haven't before, it feels the same as if you won a football game or something. In other words, especially with Japanese teachers or 1st-generation American teachers they probably do have a working knowledge of at least the randori no kata, but don't necessarily have enough mat time to meet the expectations of the students in ways other than repetitive drills. That's my hypothesis at least and I acknowledge the problems it causes.

    I like the discussion, even if it's being assumed I don't understand the nature of kata! =)


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    heikojr

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by heikojr on Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:53 am

    Thank you for such kind words Blacksmith!

    This is an interesting topic with two other questions. In 8 posts it has gone off topic.

    The original question was the title: How does one start "doing" kata?
    The easiest start is to ask your instructor. Once you get started, clinics are an excellent resourse. If even more is needed then perhaps travel to a specific instructor is needed.

    1) What is the "kata culture" like around you?
    Well, because it is our club and Jeff and i practice kata, we have certain times during our sessions when kata is the focus. Other times the focus is on another aspect of judo. Because of my interest in kata, i always find it hard that there is no interest in it, but i understand! People grow up practicing judo and never practice kata until the moment of shodan and then... never again until the moment of nidan! Of course there is no interest! They are not practicing kata in the way it was meant to be! If a person starts kata at a reasonable time in their training, they grow up with kata being just another part of class! Just like uchikomi, ukemi, randori, ect.

    On an even larger scale (beyond just our club), Renshinkan is within our area and Dr. Ashida was a big proponent of kata (infact, while in Japan, at the Kodokan, Jeff and i were told to seek him out for our kata study and they were happy to hear that we did train with him!) But Jeff and i went even further and trained in Ohio with Tony Owed.

    2) If there is none, what is your impression of kata?
    Obviously, i have answered this. There is kata by us!

    I would like to add that kata is one part of judo. Kata is a tool to study judo. Kata is one of three pillars of judo. You must study all of judo to have good judo.

    heikojr




    kelly pa
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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by kelly pa on Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:56 pm

    I’m posting here with some trepidation. The Kata forum in the other forum became nothing but an argument about kata competition. I’m a Kata competitor – and Kata practitioner – and judoka – all at the same time. Some posts on this thread have already started to take up the old arguments, and I have no interest in going through all that again. I’m happy to talk Kata – and especially because I now see my old friend Heiko here, I’ll come and talk. However, if the conversation turns to kata competition – good or bad, then I have no interest.
    Heiko raises a good point – Kata can and should be part of a regular class. At our dojo we try to incorporate it often (even just one or two techniques – it’s a common mistake to think that you must do the entire Kata of whatever you are practicing each time you work on it. Doing just one technique is OK), and we also have specific and separate Kata classes for those who want to spend more time on it. There are so many ways to start – clinics, instructors, even just trying your own work and fumbling, making mistakes. The most important part isn’t to start in any particular set way and be perfect from the get-go. The most important part is just to start. In any way. You can build from there.

    BTW – when I tried to register here, my other username (Kelly) was already taken. Another Kelly here?

    Regards,
    Kelly

    Hanon

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Hanon on Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:32 am

    kelly pa wrote:I’m posting here with some trepidation. The Kata forum in the other forum became nothing but an argument about kata competition. I’m a Kata competitor – and Kata practitioner – and judoka – all at the same time. Some posts on this thread have already started to take up the old arguments, and I have no interest in going through all that again. I’m happy to talk Kata – and especially because I now see my old friend Heiko here, I’ll come and talk. However, if the conversation turns to kata competition – good or bad, then I have no interest.
    Heiko raises a good point – Kata can and should be part of a regular class. At our dojo we try to incorporate it often (even just one or two techniques – it’s a common mistake to think that you must do the entire Kata of whatever you are practicing each time you work on it. Doing just one technique is OK), and we also have specific and separate Kata classes for those who want to spend more time on it. There are so many ways to start – clinics, instructors, even just trying your own work and fumbling, making mistakes. The most important part isn’t to start in any particular set way and be perfect from the get-go. The most important part is just to start. In any way. You can build from there.

    BTW – when I tried to register here, my other username (Kelly) was already taken. Another Kelly here?

    Regards,
    Kelly

    Hi Kelly, how the devil are you!?

    I also hope things debated on kata can be discussed in a mature open manner where we share ideas. It will be natural on time that we disagree but that should and must never stifle good debate. I have changed my opinions on certain subjects BECAUSE other posters have made points that have made me re think my judo. I hope this continues.

    Nice to chat with you again, let me know how you and yours are doing.

    Kindest regards,

    Mike

    Hanon

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Hanon on Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:41 am

    Kelly palmer wrote:Hi Mike – good to hear from you, and I hope all is well. I too have modified my views based on points raised by you, and others. I also know that you and I will agree to disagree on certain things, and I’m OK with that too. You have a wealth of knowledge at I’m willing to listen to, and I’m a Kata fool – just can’t stop doing it. I rang in the new year by doing some Ju No, Katame and Nage. Oh yes, I had a beer too!

    Let’s discuss Kata, raise ideas and debate – I’m good with that. But let’s you and I leave alone the discussion about whether Kata competition is good, bad, the devil incarnate, or the savior of civilization as we know it, or something in between. We’ve both seen that movie, and there’s nothing further to add there. I’m thrilled to talk Kata, but I won’t enter any further discussion about the aforementioned topic. Been there, done that.

    You stay well now, y’hear!

    regards,
    Kelly

    Hi again Kelly,

    I do enjoy speaking with you. On a small note I attended a kata event in ?May? this year and saw some truly spectacular katame no kata. The winning pair deserved their win, I thought at one point his uke was going to escape one of tori's holds! Was a simple pleasure to watch. I am never self confident that I cannot learn and adapt. Lets see what the future brings to judo in terms of kata and how its taught and practiced. Non of us can predict the future. Open mind is best. (just keep agreeing with me and all will be well! affraid )

    I miss my ju no kata practice. Still, so much work to do here on the land.

    Hug, Mike.
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    Judo Dad

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    Finding kata

    Post by Judo Dad on Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:20 pm

    I was at a club where the policy was not to permit Kata practice among Kyu grades and the only Kata ever practised was Nage No.
    The club made a big deal how they were the home of traditional Judo! I found a new club with a positive attitude to kata and was amazed at what I had been missing. So in short, in order to learn Kata be prepared to travel to a club where there are people interested in kata. Smile


    Hanon

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:16 am

    It has ALWAYS been difficult to find kata teachers in Europe. $0 years ago I used to spend a months salary paying the air fare to travel 3,000Kms just for an hour and a half kata training with the right sensei. Take into account the amount of judo there are and it has cost me a large fortune to learn kata. Air travel has never been so cheap so one can travel if its on ones priority list.
    I started kata as a child, it was part of judo same as ukemi and being thrown! I have never questioned the value of kata to me it would be like questioning the alue of ne waza, ukemi, shiai or randori.

    I HAVE to write kata went through a very VERY bad patch in the 70's and 80's where less and less judoka where taught kata. Shiai became the focus and most of us being true part time judoka all of us had to practice what we thought was best for us under given circumstances.

    I was truly blessed as I grew in a dojo where Shiai wasn't even mentioned until we reached green belt as kids and zero pressure was placed on us to enter championships so I was given the luxury of being able to learn my craft before the bug of shiai took me in a big way when I hit middle teens.

    So many judoka today can only manage an hour or two judo per week. Life is not what it was. I practiced judo 8 sessions per week for many years 2 to 3 hours per session. I look back at that and see just how fortunate I was. I was able to travel to several dojo with a small bus ride so practicing judo many times a week was not a problem. Not so today, there are less and less dojo so less and less time to spend in them.

    Add to that the problems encountered in learning kata and its no wonder so many past pupils have seen kata as some odd foreign object only needed for a dan rank then to never be touched again until the next rank is needed.

    There are more teachers of kata today than we have seen in the past 30 years. Kata clinics didn't exist in my day as kata was part of all judo lessons. Sort of who on earth would organise a ukemi clinic when we all practice them every time we set foot on a tatami?

    It is still difficult to learn kata. Many pupils try and find the initial experience awful. I have attended kata clinics where I have not returned after lunch. Some clinics are better than a sleeping tablet.

    The relation between kata and randori needs to be shown and explained at the off. If we can all accept kata is an invaluable tool for shiai maybe more would make use of that tool?

    Mike

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    Guest

    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Guest on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:59 am

    [quote="Hanon"]
    Taiobroshi wrote:

    Kata is not an exhibition of judo. Kata is not a stone written choreographed piece of theatre where each person knows what the other is going to do. Kata is a live work shop where both uke and tori can learn, refine and practice there attacks and escapes.
    Kata can only be of value IF it is taught properly and practiced as it should be.

    In terms of katame no kata. I have a question for you all. Of what significance-value is there to tori holding uke in KKG and uke making three know escape actions? Both acting like dummies and performing nothing more than something that looks like judo? How would that be of benefit? Shiai is not like that and kata is a tool of shiai!

    Toward the last few months of my teaching, one of my pupils took sho dan and during the years running up to this point his uke would do all he could to escape the holds of tori. I have seen tori in tears from frustration thinking he would never get to the point where he could hold his uke for 5 osae waza and maintain that hold despite the great genuine efforts of uke to escape. Time passed and uke started to fail his escape attempts and after several hundred practices tori could hold uke 99% of the time. I then changed his uke!

    I suggest to start you place to one side the reigi and moving actions and concentrate AT FIRST on the bones of the KNK.

    When you advance to the next five, shime waza, ensure your uke never submits until the waza works, same goes for the last 5. THEN study what made them work and what made them fail. Now how can such an exercise NOT be of benefit to randori and shiai?

    NO THEATRE. Not a false move in the series. Make it real and don't make it pretty or ornamental, make it functional and make it work. After some months of this we can discuss the frame work and why that is also vital to the development of the judoka in terms of shiai and randori.

    Here to help if I can,

    Mike

    Very interesting - nobody ever explained it to me like that before - the limited Kata experience I have it was almost like a kind of ritual,

    Hanon

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Hanon on Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:54 am

    [quote="Dew"]
    Hanon wrote:
    Taiobroshi wrote:

    Kata is not an exhibition of judo. Kata is not a stone written choreographed piece of theatre where each person knows what the other is going to do. Kata is a live work shop where both uke and tori can learn, refine and practice there attacks and escapes.
    Kata can only be of value IF it is taught properly and practiced as it should be.

    In terms of katame no kata. I have a question for you all. Of what significance-value is there to tori holding uke in KKG and uke making three know escape actions? Both acting like dummies and performing nothing more than something that looks like judo? How would that be of benefit? Shiai is not like that and kata is a tool of shiai!

    Toward the last few months of my teaching, one of my pupils took sho dan and during the years running up to this point his uke would do all he could to escape the holds of tori. I have seen tori in tears from frustration thinking he would never get to the point where he could hold his uke for 5 osae waza and maintain that hold despite the great genuine efforts of uke to escape. Time passed and uke started to fail his escape attempts and after several hundred practices tori could hold uke 99% of the time. I then changed his uke!

    I suggest to start you place to one side the reigi and moving actions and concentrate AT FIRST on the bones of the KNK.

    When you advance to the next five, shime waza, ensure your uke never submits until the waza works, same goes for the last 5. THEN study what made them work and what made them fail. Now how can such an exercise NOT be of benefit to randori and shiai?

    NO THEATRE. Not a false move in the series. Make it real and don't make it pretty or ornamental, make it functional and make it work. After some months of this we can discuss the frame work and why that is also vital to the development of the judoka in terms of shiai and randori.

    Here to help if I can,

    Mike

    Very interesting - nobody ever explained it to me like that before - the limited Kata experience I have it was almost like a kind of ritual,

    Hiya Dew.
    Indeed and this has been a kata killer. Kata can be so complicated it almost strangles the teacher before we even start. There is "Ritual" of sorts in kata, no doubt about it BUT BUT BUT the ritual is not THE kata its an invaluable part that needs to be learned and practiced after the bones, not the structure, have been learned.

    We always need to ask the question why in judo. Why do we need to learn happo no kuzushi? Why do we need to be proficient in ukemi? Why do we have and need shiai to be at the core of kodokan judo? Of what value is kata? All these questions are very important and need answers.
    Many past champion of greatness have developed their tokui waza directly from the practice of kata.

    Sure there is a frame work and etiquette that needs to be adhered to in kata but those aspects need to come after learning the base actions, those being the holds, the throws, the attacks and defences etc. The meat of a kata is not its ritual but its content and principles and those are not always pretty or measurable.

    If you attend a seminar on Katame no kata and the teacher only allows you three distinct escape actions per osae waza this should be informative about the level of knowledge of said teacher and what said teacher expects from the pupils. It is an exercise in futility to train the same three escapes every time uke practices. Of what value is that? As explained in my earlier post the idea is for uke to explore the weaknesses in the technique of tori and escape accordingly thus teaching tori to learn to adapt and move as uke tries unknown various escapes. Its not pretty, lines are not kept to and uke and tori move, actually fight, all over the place. It is ritual to begin in a certain spot and after that given hold return to the same given spot.
    Kata simply has to have its value demonstrated to the pupil so said pupil can make good use of the time spent learning and practicing the kata. Why, as pupils, don't we practice badminton as part of a judo lesson? I guess because badminton can offer us little in the way of education that we can directly apply to our judo. Same with kata, it has to translate directly into our practice and be seen as having value and not as a subject to learn to pass the next rank or start when ones randori days are over.

    I used to teach teens the kime no kata as their first kata. So much can be learned that's applicable to shiai. With the kime no kata and the use of bokken it also gave the kids an extra bus in learning judo. Something new and refreshing sort of like seeing those films about the samurai, gave them of feeling for the spirit of judo, not to mention learning tai sabaki, timing, confidence in facing a weapon, confidence to trust another person who is going to attack you etc. Fabulous tool for the young to learn so many judo AND character building lessons in one kata.

    Many congratulations for taking the initiative in opening this forum. Well done.

    Mike


    Last edited by Hanon on Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:01 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by genetic judoka on Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:03 am

    better question, forget starting, how does one finish doing kata?

    Hanon sensei, it's good to have you sharing your knowledge again.

    Hanon

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Hanon on Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:37 am

    genetic judoka wrote:better question, forget starting, how does one finish doing kata?

    Hanon sensei, it's good to have you sharing your knowledge again.

    Hello little you!

    Congratulations on the wedding, may you both love each other for the rest of your very long lives. Be friends as well as partners. bounce

    Not sure what you mean by "Better question, forget starting, how does one finish doing kata?"

    Oh yes, how is your knee now? Ah also that harai tsuri komi ashi....Its all coming back to me now lo Laughing l

    Bless,

    Mike

    tafftaz

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:43 am

    genetic judoka wrote:better question, forget starting, how does one finish doing kata?

    Hanon sensei, it's good to have you sharing your knowledge again.

    You never finish a Kata. You should always be striving for perfection.Which obviously is beyond most of us mere mortals in our limited lifespans Very Happy

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Hanon on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:35 am

    tafftaz wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:better question, forget starting, how does one finish doing kata?

    Hanon sensei, it's good to have you sharing your knowledge again.

    You never finish a Kata. You should always be striving for perfection.Which obviously is beyond most of us mere mortals in our limited lifespans Very Happy

    Hiya Taff,

    At my present level of understanding I am unsure if the notion of perfection can be applied to kata? If we take the Itsutsu and possibly the ju no kata they are about feel as much as visible actions. Uke can feel if tori has been successful and V a V. I ponder what would perfection even look like as no two kata renditions at any time should be replicable due to the lores of physics and psychology?
    Very interesting subject and debate. So much food for thought.

    Hope you are well?

    Mike

    tafftaz

    Posts : 330
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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:28 pm

    Hi Mike

    So good to hear from you again. Hurt my knee at work and am limping at moment,but apart from that all is well.
    Itsutsu and ju no are way out of my league. I am still getting to grips with NNK, KNK and Goshin.
    When I say perfection I meant it from a singular perspective, as in a personal ideal.
    I am not the greatest at putting my thoughts down in words so forgive me.
    I am also not the greatest kata practicioner out there, but I try. I was taught the NNK without any of the ceremony. I have carried on the same teaching method and it is greatly received and enjoyed when we do it. The etiquette and ceremony is brought in a lot later. The waza are not perfect by myself or the class, but they are learning,as am I.
    I think the three kata that I try to practise will see me out in my lifetime, and I am lucky in that a good friend of mine,who is head instructor at another club in our area,is a very good kata instructor and practicioner. We try to put on kata seminars when able and they are very well attended from many people from all over Wales and parts of England.

    Hope you are well

    Guest
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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Guest on Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:03 am

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    genetic judoka

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    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by genetic judoka on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:24 am

    Hanon wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:better question, forget starting, how does one finish doing kata?

    Hanon sensei, it's good to have you sharing your knowledge again.

    Hello little you!

    Congratulations on the wedding, may you both love each other for the rest of your very long lives. Be friends as well as partners. bounce

    Not sure what you mean by "Better question, forget starting, how does one finish doing kata?"

    Oh yes, how is your knee now? Ah also that harai tsuri komi ashi....Its all coming back to me now lo Laughing l

    Bless,

    Mike
    little? I assure you, nobody who has met me in person has ever called me little!

    thank you for the well wishes. getting married is easily among the best decisions I've ever made. that woman sure can cook!

    I took off judo for a month (2 weeks before the wedding so I didn't mess up my face, a week after for the honeymoon, and the dojo was closed for the holidays, so I just got back on the mat on wednesday), and really I think that was what my knee needed to finish recovering from the surgery. the lumps of scar tissue are gone, and the knee feels great. I haven't gotten much practice with my favorite throw lately, but I intend to dust it off in class tonight.

    unfortunately my computer was being funny and didn't let me put smileys into that post. I assure you, it was an attempt at humor. the only kata I've gotten first hand exposure to so far is NNK, and I love it. I find that if I work on it, and then finish the class with some randori, which an idea that Heikojr introduced me to when I attended his kata class (he's a great teacher BTW), the throws I land in that randori session are much prettier than normal. that alone is a good reason to stick with it. one of these days I wouldn't mind exploring Ju no kata a bit, but that one might be a bit beyond my current level.

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: How does one start "doing" kata?

    Post by Hanon on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:20 am

    genetic judoka wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:better question, forget starting, how does one finish doing kata?

    Hanon sensei, it's good to have you sharing your knowledge again.

    Hello little you!

    Congratulations on the wedding, may you both love each other for the rest of your very long lives. Be friends as well as partners. bounce

    Not sure what you mean by "Better question, forget starting, how does one finish doing kata?"

    Oh yes, how is your knee now? Ah also that harai tsuri komi ashi....Its all coming back to me now lo Laughing l

    Bless,

    Mike
    little? I assure you, nobody who has met me in person has ever called me little!

    thank you for the well wishes. getting married is easily among the best decisions I've ever made. that woman sure can cook!

    I took off judo for a month (2 weeks before the wedding so I didn't mess up my face, a week after for the honeymoon, and the dojo was closed for the holidays, so I just got back on the mat on wednesday), and really I think that was what my knee needed to finish recovering from the surgery. the lumps of scar tissue are gone, and the knee feels great. I haven't gotten much practice with my favorite throw lately, but I intend to dust it off in class tonight.

    unfortunately my computer was being funny and didn't let me put smileys into that post. I assure you, it was an attempt at humor. the only kata I've gotten first hand exposure to so far is NNK, and I love it. I find that if I work on it, and then finish the class with some randori, which an idea that Heikojr introduced me to when I attended his kata class (he's a great teacher BTW), the throws I land in that randori session are much prettier than normal. that alone is a good reason to stick with it. one of these days I wouldn't mind exploring Ju no kata a bit, but that one might be a bit beyond my current level.

    Great to learn you are happy and the knee is better.

    Ju no kata is perhaps unique in that this kata is of value to non judoka, it can be practiced as an exercise in stretching only! The more we understand judo or desire to understand the more we can learn and use from the practice of ju no kata. I muss this kata as it was the one judo thing I did that sorted my mind out when I got stressed. Like a medically prescribed drug.

    Do not see ju no kats as a mountain that cannot be climbed see it for what you can learn from it at all the various stages you pass though on your judo journey. We don't need to know the inner life's work of Gustav Otto to drive a car. There is time to learn what this chap was all about.

    Please look after that knee. Give yourself time to settle back to training.

    Best wishes,

    Mike

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