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    NYCNewbie

    Posts : 69
    Join date : 2012-12-29

    Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by NYCNewbie on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:52 pm

    Not Sode lol!

    Guys- I've heard that this is one of the most important throws to learn in Judo- is this true? I want to learn Harai Goshi and a black belt at our club (who is VERY, VERY good at Judo and is a wonderful instructor) said "learn Tsurikomi Goshi first. Work on this throw and get it down first- and THEN and only then start working on Uchimata, Harai Goshi, etc."

    He told me that Tsurikomi Goshi is just absolutely VITAL to learn. I believe him- I'm just curious as to why this is...

    Also- any tips on doing this throw- any things to think about/goals to have when practicing it? Specifically- what do I do with my right (tsurite) hand/arm/elbow?

    Thanks in advance.

    Rob GBR

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Rob GBR on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:38 pm

    the reason is the entry and the grip, right hand on the lapel, make a fist and drive the jacket up and your elbow into uke's chest, then you have to get in the lower the better, very hard through on the knees ><

    the right arm drives up and the left arm, tiny pull towards you and that's your kuzushi uke is now on his tip toes learning in


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    Rob - wannabe

    Hanon

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Hanon on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:47 am

    NYCNewbie wrote:Not Sode lol!

    Guys- I've heard that this is one of the most important throws to learn in Judo- is this true? I want to learn Harai Goshi and a black belt at our club (who is VERY, VERY good at Judo and is a wonderful instructor) said "learn Tsurikomi Goshi first. Work on this throw and get it down first- and THEN and only then start working on Uchimata, Harai Goshi, etc."

    He told me that Tsurikomi Goshi is just absolutely VITAL to learn. I believe him- I'm just curious as to why this is...

    Also- any tips on doing this throw- any things to think about/goals to have when practicing it? Specifically- what do I do with my right (tsurite) hand/arm/elbow?

    Thanks in advance.

    Hi,

    This is a genuine answer. Its is not the technique we need to watch in a judo shiai but the person who is going to use it.

    De ashi barai has caught out some truly great judoka. We have all been sat on our butts by such a small throw that we think we are invincible against.

    Okay this was not your point. But it is relevant.

    Ogoshi is the base waza in terms of koshi waza. Tsuri komi goshi is a much more advanced technique. Advanced due to its complicated requirements for correct, effective, execution.

    Your sensei is correct. It is very wise and desirable to first learn the basics in koshi waza before starting on the hane and harai goshi's

    ow we learn judo is not always a given. I took to harai tsuri komi ashi like a duck to water but it took me 25 years to perform a near correct kata guruma. I still dislike Ko sosto gari as I mentioned here in a previous post. Ko soto gari just seems to escape me?

    IN GENERAL it is wise to learn ogoshi as the first koshi waza. Both uke's feet are on the floor and there are no difficult hand actions. Put in basic terms ogoshi is tori standing in front of uke in shizenhontai, bending his knees, pulling uke an inch toward both his hips and with use of both hands taking uke over tori's hips.

    Harai goshi, hane goshi and uchimata, et al, are more complex as by their very nature tori has to stand on one leg while his other leg, the action leg, performs another task. Tori, to this end, not only has to control the balance of his uke but must have great mastery over his own balance.
    To put this to the test stand alone in the tatami and practice shadow uchikomi of harai goshi or uchimata, how often can we maintain our own balance? Imagine this action when applied to the actual throw of an uke! Tori must control uke and himself.

    The great benefit in learning tsuri komi goshi is for us, in the West, to learn the importance of bending the knees and getting our hips lower than the COG of an uke. It is also a very significant throw in teaching correct hand grip and how to utilise the hands to make them the most effective possible.

    Mike

    NYCNewbie

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by NYCNewbie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:43 am

    Hanon wrote:
    The great benefit in learning tsuri komi goshi is for us, in the West, to learn the importance of bending the knees and getting our hips lower than the COG of an uke. It is also a very significant throw in teaching correct hand grip and how to utilise the hands to make them the most effective possible.

    Thank you for your response! Ah- the "knees/getting low"-thing. This, to me, is my biggest stumbling block- THE absolute # 1 issue I have, by far- the thing that does more damage to my game (if you can call what I have a "game") than anything else. I have been told by a wonderful Japanese player at our club that this is my problem. His exact words were "you need to get lower- you're too tall in the legs."

    It's the bete noir of my Judo.

    Hanon

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    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Hanon on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:25 am

    NYCNewbie wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    The great benefit in learning tsuri komi goshi is for us, in the West, to learn the importance of bending the knees and getting our hips lower than the COG of an uke. It is also a very significant throw in teaching correct hand grip and how to utilise the hands to make them the most effective possible.

    Thank you for your response! Ah- the "knees/getting low"-thing. This, to me, is my biggest stumbling block- THE absolute # 1 issue I have, by far- the thing that does more damage to my game (if you can call what I have a "game") than anything else. I have been told by a wonderful Japanese player at our club that this is my problem. His exact words were "you need to get lower- you're too tall in the legs."

    It's the bete noir of my Judo.

    It is the bete noir of most Western judoka? I started judo as a small boy so my sensei taught us from day one the importance of the hips as apposed to the use of the upper body-shoulders. Bending the knees was a key area for me when teaching judo.
    There are exercises that help. Uchikomi tsuri komi goshi being just one of them. Strong, thighs, stomach, wrists and neck where drilled into us.

    Nice to learn you have a sensei who is monitoring your judo.

    Mike

    BillC

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by BillC on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:50 am

    Rob GBR wrote:the reason is the entry and the grip, right hand on the lapel, make a fist and drive the jacket up and your elbow into uke's chest, then you have to get in the lower the better, very hard through on the knees ><

    the right arm drives up and the left arm, tiny pull towards you and that's your kuzushi uke is now on his tip toes learning in

    Good answer Bob. May I add for Nyoobie ... who if I recall correctly is a bit older than you ... that there is a different style of doing this technique that is easier for old farts and does not require the knees to be bent so much ... though by all means ancient judoka should exercise off line to acquire the flexibility and strength to do a solo "Asian squat" for general health, conditioning and resiliency ... even if it becomes impractical to throw from that position.

    The old man style is hard to describe, but imagine uki goshi hips ... slightly bent knees and lots of reaching and rotation with the top of the gluteus ... of course one has to have a proper gluteus which goes against the nature of a typical type of middle-aged physique ... and a strong tsurikomi on top. This will pass ... even if with a lower score ... on a nagenokata exam.

    The name implies what I think is the most important part of the technique, both in execution and in preparation for other waza ... the concept of tsurikomi itself. There is plenty out there about this concept ... start maybe with Daigo-sensei's book which is fresh, affordable and should be on everyone's shelf.

    Common problems ... bigger throw killers than the knees ... are the failure to balance the pull applied using both hands simultaneously or even tsurite ahead of hikite depending on the motion ... failure to keep uke from settling back on to his heels ... and the failure of tori to keep the hands in front of the body and transition to a push movement and finish the throw. Having shoulder issues doing this throw? A big stall in the middle of the technique? That's why.

    The NNK is an excellent way to learn this throw. Multiple ways of doing the NNK in fact. The difference in footwork between tsurikomigoshi and haraigoshi is interesting and important IMHO.

    Anyway ... two cents from someone who struggled and finally got it well enough to make his sensei stop complaining.


    _________________
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    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    NYCNewbie

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by NYCNewbie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:27 pm

    Hanon wrote:
    Nice to learn you have a sensei who is monitoring your judo.

    Unfortunately, this is not the case at all. The person who told me about TKG is a black belt at our club who is known for his excellent, technically (very) proficient Judo, one who teaches classes when Sensei is out for whatever reason, but who is not a regular instructor at all. Indeed, this advice came about when I asked him after class to "show me something for a minute." During his helping me, he stated that I ought to work on TKG.

    In fact, my problem is precisely that I don't have anyone monitoring my Judo (or at least not to any real extent), and I'm hopeless at learning the sport/picking things up myself/figuring it out.

    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:50 am

    Tsuri goshi --> harai goshi I can see. Tsurkiomi goshi....well, you could make that argument, but it's not the most logical of teaching progressions. Of course, it would all depend on the exact way either throw was shown / used as a cue.

    Ask your instructor as to his rationale; it could make for an interesting discussion

    Hanon

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    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Hanon on Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:18 am

    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Tsuri goshi --> harai goshi I can see. Tsurkiomi goshi....well, you could make that argument, but it's not the most logical of teaching progressions. Of course, it would all depend on the exact way either throw was shown / used as a cue.

    Ask your instructor as to his rationale; it could make for an interesting discussion

    Ouch, Not agreeing with you there. Tsuri goshi, as in o tsuri goshi and ko tsuri goshi, are different waza all together. The O and Ko tsuri goshi have an entirely different entry and entirely different window of application. They are generally used against an uke who is deep in jigotai and needs that pulling or drawing out. In the O and Ko tsuri goshi the hips and back of tori are more like a forward facing launch pad and uke becomes the rocket.

    O soto gari is similar to o soto otoshi and o soto guruma. Similar in terms of judo is the massive difference between failure in tori's attack and even being countered. Eg, to attack an uke who is in deep jigotai with o soto gari is not the most efficient manner of attack. The use of an o soto otoshi may better fit that situation.
    Nothing is written in stone.

    The key point in learning the tsuri komi goshi is its a foundation waza to build others on and from. So many details from the TKG are to be found in other koshi waza such as harai goshi.

    No black and white rules here though.

    Best wishes,

    Mike


    Last edited by Hanon on Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:31 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Addition to calrify a sentence poorly structured.)

    NYCNewbie

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    Join date : 2012-12-29

    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by NYCNewbie on Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:08 am

    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Tsuri goshi --> harai goshi I can see. Tsurkiomi goshi....well, you could make that argument, but it's not the most logical of teaching progressions. Of course, it would all depend on the exact way either throw was shown / used as a cue.

    Ask your instructor as to his rationale; it could make for an interesting discussion

    He (the advice giver) actually told me about TKG in the context of Uchimata- if that makes it any more sensible. But like Hanon said, he was also saying to practice it (non-stop, for a year- or at least until I can throw it "decently") because, according to him, it's THE foundational throw of Judo- or at least top 3.

    He also said "with your particular Judo difficulties (i.e.- balky knees- which is more a psychosomatic issue than anything else; yes, they are in fact much-operated on and quite creaky- but they actually CAN handle bending- they just don't want to lol), TKG would really help you. It's a tough throw to become proficient at- and one you'll NEVER get in competition- but you must take the time to learn it. I guarantee your Judo will improve greatly via learning this Waza."

    It's weird- I actually kind of like having to bend in TKG- whereas I HATE (as in: truly despise) the "bend" in Ippon Seoi Nage...Whenever I do the "bend" in ISN I fall backwards lol!!!! I am SO bad at that throw it's hilarious...

    Anyway- I digress.

    I have another question about TKG: are the hips supposed to "go across Uke and come out the other side"- as with O-Goshi?

    Hanon

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Hanon on Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:32 am

    NYCNewbie wrote:
    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Tsuri goshi --> harai goshi I can see. Tsurkiomi goshi....well, you could make that argument, but it's not the most logical of teaching progressions. Of course, it would all depend on the exact way either throw was shown / used as a cue.

    Ask your instructor as to his rationale; it could make for an interesting discussion

    He (the advice giver) actually told me about TKG in the context of Uchimata- if that makes it any more sensible. But like Hanon said, he was also saying to practice it (non-stop, for a year- or at least until I can throw it "decently") because, according to him, it's THE foundational throw of Judo- or at least top 3.

    He also said "with your particular Judo difficulties (i.e.- balky knees- which is more a psychosomatic issue than anything else; yes, they are in fact much-operated on and quite creaky- but they actually CAN handle bending- they just don't want to lol), TKG would really help you. It's a tough throw to become proficient at- and one you'll NEVER get in competition- but you must take the time to learn it. I guarantee your Judo will improve greatly via learning this Waza."

    It's weird- I actually kind of like having to bend in TKG- whereas I HATE (as in: truly despise) the "bend" in Ippon Seoi Nage...Whenever I do the "bend" in ISN I fall backwards lol!!!! I am SO bad at that throw it's hilarious...

    Anyway- I digress.

    I have another question about TKG: are the hips supposed to "go across Uke and come out the other side"- as with O-Goshi?

    Hiya.

    This is a nice debate.

    Firstly you should listen to your sensei and take what I write with great caution. I cant see your judo. I know nothing about your judo, your body type, size, age, physical or mental aptitude.

    Ermmm, we possibly have a problem with your o goshi. In o goshi your hips should not come out the other side? This would be a style of koshi guruma.

    Uke stand in shizenhiontai (normal natural true posture position). You stand directly in front of him facing the same way also in shizenhontai. Don't grip yet just stand there two inches in front of uke facing the same direction uke is. Now swing your upper body, not moving your feet and pass your Right arm around uke waste and your Left hand under his Right elbow, bend your knees, pull him a tad to you (not enough to make him step forward or close that small gap) hug him to your hips, rotate your head and at the same time straighten your legs while rolling uke over BOTH your hips (your butt)using your hands and body to make the kake (throw)

    If I am confusing you please let me know. Feedback will help me help you. Thanks

    Mike

    NYCNewbie

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by NYCNewbie on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:31 pm

    Hanon wrote:
    I know nothing about your judo, your body type, size, age, physical or mental aptitude.
    If I am confusing you please let me know. Feedback will help me help you. Thanks

    Age: 46
    Body type: 6' tall, 170 pounds, skinny legs, more solid, slightly bigger upper body (I swam for years- think swimmer's build).
    First started Judo: Age 43 (just over two years of the sport).
    Physical ability: Just slightly above average. I do everything with almost no speed. Think of a slow-moving stork.
    Mental aptitude: definitely well below average as far as Judo goes. Single minded to a fault (picture a caveman saying "must throw Uke with Tai Otoshi- Tai Otoshi no work- make NYCNewbie mad! NYCNewbie no like! NYCNewbie do same thing again and again- maybe work someday!").

    I try the same pattern of shitty, totally ineffectual Waza ("kicky" foot sweeps, crappy Tai O (weight on right foot/leaning right), crappy Osoto attempt (not deep at all- just placing my right leg out there and hop-hop-hopping into getting thrown by my opponent).

    I am always told to "relax." My partners tell me I'm tense as hell and telegraph everything.

    I regularly get blown up with Harai Goshi and Uchimata.

    Highlight-reel throws for my opponent.

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Guest on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:36 pm

    NYCNewbie wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    I know nothing about your judo, your body type, size, age, physical or mental aptitude.
    If I am confusing you please let me know. Feedback will help me help you. Thanks

    Age: 46
    Body type: 6' tall, 170 pounds, skinny legs, more solid, slightly bigger upper body (I swam for years- think swimmer's build).
    First started Judo: Age 43 (just over two years of the sport).
    Physical ability: Just slightly above average. I do everything with almost no speed. Think of a slow-moving stork.
    Mental aptitude: definitely well below average as far as Judo goes. Single minded to a fault (picture a caveman saying "must throw Uke with Tai Otoshi- Tai Otoshi no work- make NYCNewbie mad! NYCNewbie no like! NYCNewbie do same thing again and again- maybe work someday!").

    I try the same pattern of shitty, totally ineffectual Waza ("kicky" foot sweeps, crappy Tai O (weight on right foot/leaning right), crappy Osoto attempt (not deep at all- just placing my right leg out there and hop-hop-hopping into getting thrown by my opponent).

    I am always told to "relax." My partners tell me I'm tense as hell and telegraph everything.

    I regularly get blown up with Harai Goshi and Uchimata.

    Highlight-reel throws for my opponent.

    hilarious post - thanks for the laugh - are you sure we're not related pirat

    genetic judoka

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by genetic judoka on Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:14 am

    NYCNewbie and I have discussed judo quite a bit via PM. he's better than he lets on. don't let him fool you.

    Hanon

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Hanon on Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:17 am

    NYCNewbie wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    I know nothing about your judo, your body type, size, age, physical or mental aptitude.
    If I am confusing you please let me know. Feedback will help me help you. Thanks

    Age: 46
    Body type: 6' tall, 170 pounds, skinny legs, more solid, slightly bigger upper body (I swam for years- think swimmer's build).
    First started Judo: Age 43 (just over two years of the sport).
    Physical ability: Just slightly above average. I do everything with almost no speed. Think of a slow-moving stork.
    Mental aptitude: definitely well below average as far as Judo goes. Single minded to a fault (picture a caveman saying "must throw Uke with Tai Otoshi- Tai Otoshi no work- make NYCNewbie mad! NYCNewbie no like! NYCNewbie do same thing again and again- maybe work someday!").

    I try the same pattern of shitty, totally ineffectual Waza ("kicky" foot sweeps, crappy Tai O (weight on right foot/leaning right), crappy Osoto attempt (not deep at all- just placing my right leg out there and hop-hop-hopping into getting thrown by my opponent).

    I am always told to "relax." My partners tell me I'm tense as hell and telegraph everything.

    I regularly get blown up with Harai Goshi and Uchimata.

    Highlight-reel throws for my opponent.


    How is your ukemi? If you are friends with the tatami you will attack without reservation as the fear of being countered is not there. I strongly suggest every lesson you do 10 minutes various ukemi training. I am not saying you have this fear. It may be a reason for part of your attack problem?

    Shadow uchikomi. Have you any experience of this type of practice, its invaluable under good supervision.

    Regarding kicking your partner in ashi waza this is because you are not turning your sweeping foot at the ankle. You need to shadow practice this action to develop the correct angle of attack for your sweeping foot.

    If you are being trown a lot with uchimata and harai one of the key areas of defence may be missing? NEVER allow your partner to control your head. Don't allow your partner to bend you forward at the hips but totally contrary to what you see in modern day judo make your body a banana with the convex shaper toward your partner. If your partner has you in a concave shape or form this is how tori can get under you and throw.

    You need to practice maintaining your posture upright, this needs good stomach muscles and a strong neck.

    Study as much as you can regarding the significance of shizenhontai. Combine this study with the practice of happo no kuzushi.

    upon completion of a throw, you being tori, do you have your head up or arse back and head down?

    If you have any queries with this question please feel free to ask for clarification. I will do all I am able to support you.

    Best wishes,

    Mike

    NYCNewbie

    Posts : 69
    Join date : 2012-12-29

    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by NYCNewbie on Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:36 pm

    Hanon wrote:
    How is your ukemi? If you are friends with the tatami you will attack without reservation as the fear of being countered is not there. I strongly suggest every lesson you do 10 minutes various ukemi training. I am not saying you have this fear. It may be a reason for part of your attack problem?

    Shadow uchikomi. Have you any experience of this type of practice, its invaluable under good supervision.

    Regarding kicking your partner in ashi waza this is because you are not turning your sweeping foot at the ankle. You need to shadow practice this action to develop the correct angle of attack for your sweeping foot.

    If you are being trown a lot with uchimata and harai one of the key areas of defence may be missing? NEVER allow your partner to control your head. Don't allow your partner to bend you forward at the hips but totally contrary to what you see in modern day judo make your body a banana with the convex shaper toward your partner. If your partner has you in a concave shape or form this is how tori can get under you and throw.

    You need to practice maintaining your posture upright, this needs good stomach muscles and a strong neck.

    Study as much as you can regarding the significance of shizenhontai. Combine this study with the practice of happo no kuzushi.

    upon completion of a throw, you being tori, do you have your head up or arse back and head down?

    If you have any queries with this question please feel free to ask for clarification. I will do all I am able to support you.

    Best wishes,

    Mike

    Wow Mike- thanks. Ok first off- my Ukemi is actually quite decent. I can get thrown- HARD- and I'm fine. My Ukemi is kind of solid actually. Not perfect by any means- but probably NOT my issue.

    If I'm scared it's because I get thrown so much, so often, that honestly i think my ego gets tired. I do attack- in fact I'm mostly about attacking- but my attacking is just so incredibly ineffectual. I get blown up when I attack (and when I don't lol). In fact, having decent Ukemi (again: decent) is the only "Sankyu" thing about me. I fall like a Sankyu.

    I throw worse than a white belt, however. How can I possibly say worse? Because white belts attack with a kind of ease that I don't have. They "fit in" better. Sure- they're thrown easier than I am (yes, my defense/balance is better than a white belt's)- but their throwing motion/tsukuri is far more natural; they're not so thought-filled/burdened as I am, they don't have ingrained bad habits like I do, they don't get in their own way.

    Let me put it this way: I have NEVER thrown- i.e., thrown via an offensive, purposeful attack- a higher belt than myself (i.e., a Judoka higher than Sankyu) in Randori- and this in over two years of Judo. I have thrown lower belts- but even that is tough for me. It's not like I get a yellow belt and start rag-dolling him (like what used to happen to me when I was a yellow belt lol). I can't throw a lower belt at will- or anything even close to it. And occasionally I can't even throw a lower belt at all- which makes me feel terrible.

    Indeed, the only legitimate, Ippon-scoring throw I ever get against a black belt in full-on Randori is a counter- and it's the same one every time: basically, Uke misses with Uchimata and I put myself perpendicular to him (with my left leg behind him) and, in a sort of side-on bear hug, drop down to the mat, twisting and turning in the air so that when we hit the mat I'm facing downwards and Uke's facing upwards, with my arm across his chest.

    Kosoto Gake Makikomi perhaps?

    This is literally the one and only throw I EVER get in real (not light) Randori- and this happens maybe once every twenty opponents.

    Anyway...

    As far as my Judo goes, do not listen to Genetic Judoka. Look, him and I haven't met in person, but we've had some serious correspondence over the past few months, and he is someone whom I consider a budding friend. He is also a person who is incredibly encouraging- but he has never played Judo with me and he doesn't get it: I honestly AM this bad.

    He doesn't believe me because it seems so unlikely. Plus, he's talented at our sport- as well as big, athletic, a fighter, and a lefty (none of which I am Laughing), so in no way, shape, or form will he ever experience what I go through, Judo-wise.

    When/if we (hopefully) meet at Judo camp this summer, THEN maybe he'll get it lol.

    I watch other players and even the ones who haven't been doing it as long as I have "fit in" far faster and more naturally. Picture a guy popping in for Ippon Seoi Nage- quickly- with purpose- looking very much like a Judo player. The guy may not get the throw- in fact, most of the time he doesn't- but his movement is fluid and you can tell that it's only a matter of time before he's throwing people with it. These are people I see at my dojo. Now picture a guy who trie to throw Tai Otoshi by doing the leg-stick-out thing- which Uke of course dutifully steps over, again and again and again, ad infinitum.

    I may not be good at Judo but- and I know this may sound strange- but, believe it or not, I do have a good eye. I can see progress in others- whereas I seem to be either regressing or at least remaining in a holding pattern- like some sort of Groundhog Day Judo limbo where I do the same thing over and over again (because it's what I know) and expect different results.

    I didn't want to post all this because it seems so self-indulgent to drone on and on about oneself, but what can I say- you asked, so I'm telling you.

    I'm a weird player- a guy who on the surface seems like he should be decent at judo- meaning, I don't appear gangly or uncoordinated when I step on the Tatami- yet when you play me you say "Jesus this guy is terrible. He attacks with right Tai Otoshi and lapel-side Sasae all day, but I know what's coming and his Kuzushi's non-existent. He strains and makes grunting noises as he's coming in and stiffens up- he's his own worst enemy. Plus, I can bait him, break his posture, and then just straight blow him up with Harai Goshi or Uchimata!"

    It must be fun to play me because I get thrown with the BIG, highlight-reel throws. Really. The ones where people say "whoaaaa..."

    I am not exaggerating one word of this. Why would I make it up?

    So what don't I suck at, Judo-wise? Well....I'm maybe slightly better on the ground (I said SLIGHTLY) than i am standing in that I'm a bit more relaxed and don't think as much. When I chicken-fight from the knees in Newaza I'm usually not dominated the way I am standing. If I face someone my rank or lower I don't get worked the same way I do standing. in fact, one guy at our club- a taller, far more athletic guy who's 15 years younger and whose Tachi-waza is DEFINITELY better than mine (even though I've been doing Judo for half a year more then him)- a guy who throws me in Randori more than i throw him- a guy who gets the sport more than I do- well, when we go at it from the knees it's even: I pin him (or get him down, or get him in Kesa) as much as he does it to me. Obviously this doesn't make me good at Newaza or anything- just a bit better than I am at Tachi-Waza.

    Also- I am probably slightly harder to throw than I used to be- meaning, not everything the other guy does works every time- but eventually it does (whereas nothing of mine does, ever lol).

    (sigh)

    That thing you said about sticking your stomach out is what Sensei says. It's true, of course; I am regularly bent over in Randori, pulled down, and then thrown (often with Uchimata). I've been told I really need to stay more upright on many occasions. That and "relax- you're SO tense!!!." Oh and "you've got to bend more at the knees- you really must."

    As to your last question: when I finish a throw my head I think my head is down and my ass up- but like I said I don't ever actually hit any throws so I'm not really sure...

    Also, I should probably find another throw besides Tai Otoshi- I just love that throw so much and I want it SO badly- but everyone says it's a tough throw to initially attack with. Then again, for me, what throw isn't lol...

    A Japanese guy whose Judo I love said to me last class "you know, when I was in Tokyo, sometimes Sensei would make us do two hours of Uchikomi. JUST Uchikomi- for two hours-nothing else. I hated it- but you know what- it helped. Things like that made my Judo more natural- I didn't have to thnk about moves- I just did them." I think that this is what I need- problem is I'd probably do the Uchikomis wrong lol...

    Please understand that I'm not getting down on myself- nor am I being unduly harsh. I truly wish I was better than I'm letting on; unfortunately, it's just not the case.




    Last edited by NYCNewbie on Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:51 pm; edited 3 times in total

    judoratt

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    Age : 59
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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by judoratt on Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:21 pm



    Question: How often outside of NNK haven you tought or learned clasic Tsourikomi Goshi? seccond question how often have you seen it used in rondori or competition? Please remember this is not sode. Shocked Shocked

    jkw

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    Join date : 2013-01-04

    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by jkw on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:47 pm

    judoratt wrote:

    Question: How often outside of NNK haven you tought or learned clasic Tsourikomi Goshi? seccond question how often have you seen it used in rondori or competition? Please remember this is not sode. Shocked Shocked

    Tsurikomi-goshi was the first throw I was properly taught as a beginner. It's all I did for 6 months before switching to morote-seoi-nage. Never worked for me in randori, but I was a beginner at the time. I've occasionally played around with it in randori over the years and sometimes use it to "check" my other techniques if something isn't working.

    BillC

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    Location : Vista, California

    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by BillC on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:42 am

    judoratt wrote:

    Question: How often outside of NNK haven you tought or learned clasic Tsourikomi Goshi? seccond question how often have you seen it used in rondori or competition? Please remember this is not sode. Shocked Shocked

    It's been a while ... in fact before our time ... but one guy I know is reputed to have tsurikomigoshi as his major killer throw

    http://books.google.com/books?id=LNkDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=shinohara+judo+los+angeles&source=bl&ots=zRDZsp25Wn&sig=6fMPvce4R9s-v-JjUUJadJICKxs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KWbsUL2GA4rBigKTlYGYDA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=shinohara%20judo%20los%20angeles&f=false


    Actually ... there's a guy in Albuquerque about our age who has a wicked tsurikomigoshi to the left, not a sode. Sometimes he does it John Osaka style with the hikite on the obi ... which is how my friend Rich Keating ended his judo career at ikkyu with the coolest shoulder dislocation I have ever seen. "Don't put your arm out ... oops, too late" Not the fault of the thrower, it's an excellent throw.

    Maybe time for a comeback?

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:09 am

    judoratt wrote:

    Question: How often outside of NNK haven you tought or learned clasic Tsourikomi Goshi? seccond question how often have you seen it used in rondori or competition? Please remember this is not sode. Shocked Shocked

    I teach TKG without using NNK. As for randori or shiai, before I ruined my right shoulder I used it quite a bit in randori, less in shiai (being a Seoi Nage kind of guy). Now I can barely demonstrate it to the right, left is OK.

    What I've found is that TKG is an excellent way to instill correct coordination for most major forward throws. I observed over the years that a skill lacking in a LOT of judoka was tsurikomi-and I mean the whole body action/coordination, not just the hands/arms. In fact, I observed that lack in myself, due to focusing on Seoi Nage so intensely for so many years.

    One thing that made me see the light so to speak, was Daigo Sensei book. He showed the NNK version, then another that does not involve the super deep knee bending and over extension of the tsurite. That more general application made sense to me, and I started practicing it more and more, and eventually introduced it to my students, who were struggling with the tsurikomi action.

    As with any throw, people often struggle with it at first, but over time (and not too long) start to get it, and the improvement in overall judo is amazing. I basically spent one whole summer 2-3x a week with the my students you met at the shiai in Spokane working on tsurikomi and specifically tsurikomi goshi (integrating kumi kata was part of that as well). They laugh about it now, but it got them past the tipping point in their Judo...all of their Judo.

    Ben

    judoratt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by judoratt on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:43 pm

    I remember your kids they were solid judokas, are they shodan by now? I have heard of the concept of using TSG as a building block it was a while back.

    After reading the original post I thought how rare outside NNK the clasic TSG is. In 25plus years I can only remember teaching it maybe twice outside NNK. It could be interesting working on it after the competitive season. Thanks for the "food for thought".SmileSmile

    BTW I can say I was here for Bens first post, prety cool.cheerscheers

    Bert

    genetic judoka

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:03 pm

    judoratt wrote:
    BTW I can say I was here for Bens first post, prety cool.cheerscheers
    I was wondering when Ben would come join the party.

    welcome aboard.

    NYCNewbie

    Posts : 69
    Join date : 2012-12-29

    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by NYCNewbie on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:33 am

    Of course it was something I wrote that drew Ben in and got him hooked on this forum...

    Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:40 am

    judoratt wrote:I remember your kids they were solid judokas, are they shodan by now? I have heard of the concept of using TSG as a building block it was a while back.

    After reading the original post I thought how rare outside NNK the clasic TSG is. In 25plus years I can only remember teaching it maybe twice outside NNK. It could be interesting working on it after the competitive season. Thanks for the "food for thought".SmileSmile

    BTW I can say I was here for Bens first post, prety cool.cheerscheers

    Bert

    Thanks Bert that means a lot coming from you.

    They are both shodan as of last year. My first two students who I've actually gotten there and still been around (several others have gone on to earn black belts after leaving for other cities). They worked VERY hard, Leelen has been in Judo since he was 6 years old, Dillon since he was I t hink 9 or 10. They both had severe ankle injuries before their shodan test in Steveston. Leelen wore a soft cast as well as a professionally wrapped ankle while doing NNK, Dillon had his ankle professionally wrapped as well.

    Both are also certified refs and trained as dojo assistants in the Canadian system, and help teach junior classes as well as my senior class.

    Ben

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:43 am

    NYCNewbie wrote:Of course it was something I wrote that drew Ben in and got him hooked on this forum...

    Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    Now show us how serious you are and post video of how crappy your Judo is so maybe you might get some specific advice.

    Ben

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