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    What is a traditionalist ?

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    techman

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    What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by techman on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:39 pm

    The term Traditional is used by many different judo organisations, all claiming to follow the true path of traditional Kodokan judo. This has often lead to break away organisations and splinter groups being formed. So I ask what forum members believe is a traditional organisation, and what is a traditional judoka. And why so many organisations claim to be so, and yet fail to see eye to eye with each other.
    Is it all about ego or do they indeed offer something special?
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    Quicksilver

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    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by Quicksilver on Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:13 pm

    The matter you describe could be debated endlessly, and I would bet a significant amount of money that such discussion, though potentially very productive in some respects, will not lead to a clear definitive conclusion simply due to the very nature of the matters you seek to analyze.

    With that said, though... when 'aerodynamic' is a selling point for socks (I kid you not) and 'organic' one for foods (I'm not sure precisely when it was that people started producing non carbon based vegetables), 'traditional' can become one of those words that people like to throw around quite simply because it sounds good (depending of course in the context in which it is used). I am fairly sure that there is nothing inordinately 'quantum' about the workings of a particular brand washing powder but words by their very nature carry connotations beyond their literal meanings and the effect this has can be significant; so long as the people you are trying to sell your product too don't think too hard about the substance of what you're saying. There may be no precise definition of exactly what 'traditional' is or is not in the context of Judo, but when people describe themselves or their club in that way it is likely because it carries certain connotations with which they desire to be associated- potentially justifiably so, potentially not, dependent largely upon the answer to your original question.

    My 2c for whatever it may be worth.

    Regards,

    -Q
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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:04 pm

    My Dear Quicksilver, That answer is as slippery as holding your name in your hand lol!
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    finarashi

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    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by finarashi on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:55 pm

    A traditionalist is someone who believes he/she has been blessed by recieving all relevant trainings to Judo and hei/her approach to Judo is the correct one and everybody else should imitate him/her because they are right. They said so themselves.


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    afja_lm139

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    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by afja_lm139 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:09 pm

    Best fit; one who gains smarts and stopped shiai. Judo is different for the young and foolish than it is for the old and foolish Smile.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:44 am

    Some elements of what is traditional, perhaps?

    - absolutely no blue judogi in class practice
    - no rash vests
    - green and red matting - not blue and yellow
    - curriculum based on gokyo
    - kata incorporated into everyday practice
    - no win at all cost mentality
    - full use of Japanese terminology
    - respectful, enjoyable class environment


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    Chilli

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    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by Chilli on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:28 am

    Jonesy wrote:Some elements of what is traditional, perhaps?

    - absolutely no blue judogi in class practice
    - no rash vests
    - green and red matting - not blue and yellow
    - curriculum based on gokyo
    - kata incorporated into everyday practice
    - no win at all cost mentality
    - full use of Japanese terminology
    - respectful, enjoyable class environment
    Not many places like that then - only the last point seems to be present in all the clubs I've been to.

    techman

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    Location : Cumbria England

    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by techman on Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:03 pm

    Chilli wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:Some elements of what is traditional, perhaps?

    - absolutely no blue judogi in class practice
    - no rash vests
    - green and red matting - not blue and yellow
    - curriculum based on gokyo
    - kata incorporated into everyday practice
    - no win at all cost mentality
    - full use of Japanese terminology
    - respectful, enjoyable class environment
    Not many places like that then - only the last point seems to be present in all the clubs I've been to.

    No blue judogi -yes
    No Rash vests-yes
    Green and red mats - yes
    Kata in every session - Yes
    no win at all costs - Yes
    Full use of Japanese terminology - As much as I know, Yes
    Respectful enjoyable class environment - like to think we are try our best to achieve it.

    Just realised Jonesy that I tick most of the boxes, and I still have a set of tatami with wooden frame and canvass in one of my clubs(can't afford new ones )And not sure I would want to change it anyway as I love the movement on canvass. Very Happy

    Gus

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    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by Gus on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:56 am

    A traditionalist is somebody who sees Judo as a profound force for change in themselves and the world , not just a sport - for them its not about winning against other people but winning against themselves. They are also usually quite strict and diciplined.
    Its not just a term, as many would like to believe, that describes pretentious overweight Judoka that fall back on on "tradition" because dont want to train hard and have poor technique - some of the worlds most famous Judoka such as Kosei Enoue could be described as "traditionalist" . In fact some of the most accomplished competitive Judoka I have met I would describe in this way - many elite Judoka I have met talk about Judo being a "way of life" . Even though they are elite Judoka - its not all about competition for them. I see these things as indicative of a traditional approach to Judo - traditional in that it still bears some relation to the original goals of Judo as I understand them.
    There is also more emphasis on etiquette - again some might think this is superfluous ornamental nonsense - but actually I have noticed a positive correlation between lack of etiquette and dickheads on the mat.
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    NBK

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    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by NBK on Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:20 pm

    Gus wrote:......
    There is also more emphasis on etiquette - again some might think this is superfluous ornamental nonsense - but actually I have noticed a positive correlation between lack of etiquette and dickheads on the mat.
    Doubleplusgood.

    And getting folks to slow down and observe appropriate, reasonable etiquette can not only act as a filter but also trains people in other ways seemingly lacking in much of today's interactions.

    Again, there are limits, and some things get wonky - I am working with some US and European visitors, and some of the things that appear to have worked their way into their notions of 'Japanese etiquette' range from quaintly naive to pretty weird.

    But even in Japan there are issues. Recently I went to a seminar with some very senior judoka, one of who gave an interesting speech regarding the importance of transmitting the 'correct judo'. Then we changed, went to the mat, and the lead instructor, a university 6dan coach, shows up in a faded blue gi and bowed in by placing his fists on the mat - he looked like hell. Did it for three days running. Same blue gi the whole time.

    NBK
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:43 pm

    NBK wrote:
    Gus wrote:......
    There is also more emphasis on etiquette - again some might think this is superfluous ornamental nonsense - but actually I have noticed a positive correlation between lack of etiquette and dickheads on the mat.
    Doubleplusgood.

    And getting folks to slow down and observe appropriate, reasonable etiquette can not only act as a filter but also trains people in other ways seemingly lacking in much of today's interactions.

    Again, there are limits, and some things get wonky - I am working with some US and European visitors, and some of the things that appear to have worked their way into their notions of 'Japanese etiquette' range from quaintly naive to pretty weird.

    But even in Japan there are issues. Recently I went to a seminar with some very senior judoka, one of who gave an interesting speech regarding the importance of transmitting the 'correct judo'. Then we changed, went to the mat, and the lead instructor, a university 6dan coach, shows up in a faded blue gi and bowed in by placing his fists on the mat - he looked like hell. Did it for three days running. Same blue gi the whole time.

    NBK

    Could it be that you met the Antichrist ? Cool


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    Udon

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    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by Udon on Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:31 pm

    Judo is simple. I don't mean there aren't complex techniques that are far beyond me to execute properly or that I understand all the implications of all the katas.
    Judo is a martial art distilled from older martial arts and which emphasizes learning how to best use our mental and physical energies. It teaches us to strive for mutual benefit and welfare. Through the diligent practice of judo,we learn to respect our opponents, teachers, and fellow judoka. This respect is demonstrated through, among other things, the courtesy exhibited in the dojo. And the purpose of all this? It is to make each of us a better person and thereby make the society we exist in better. I think that is the simple, straight forward and ultimate goal of Kano Shihan.
    So, in my opinion traditional judo is that judo which has as its goal the betterment of the individual and the better of society.

    hedgehogey

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    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by hedgehogey on Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:16 pm

    Traditionalist, n: Someone who has a similar judo style to the speaker; The way the speaker was taught judo

    NYCNewbie

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    Re: What is a traditionalist ?

    Post by NYCNewbie on Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:54 pm

    Gus wrote:some might think this is superfluous ornamental nonsense - but actually I have noticed a positive correlation between lack of etiquette and dickheads on the mat.

    Early candidate for line of the year.

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