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    Tsurikomi Goshi questions

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    NYCNewbie

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by NYCNewbie on Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:41 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    NYCNewbie wrote:Of course it was something I wrote that drew Ben in and got him hooked on this forum...

    Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    Now show us how serious you are and post video of how crappy your Judo is so maybe you might get some specific advice.

    Ben

    I will- just gotta remember to get someone with a camera to go ahead and film the proceedings.

    raphaelhudson

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by raphaelhudson on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:59 pm

    be careful with this technique in randori, the extended arm in traditional TKG is a recipe for injury if you stuff it up
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    judoratt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by judoratt on Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:31 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    judoratt wrote:I remember your kids they were solid judokas, are they shodan by now? I have heard of the concept of using TSG as a building block it was a while back.

    After reading the original post I thought how rare outside NNK the clasic TSG is. In 25plus years I can only remember teaching it maybe twice outside NNK. It could be interesting working on it after the competitive season. Thanks for the "food for thought".SmileSmile

    BTW I can say I was here for Bens first post, prety cool.cheerscheers

    Bert

    Thanks Bert that means a lot coming from you.

    They are both shodan as of last year. My first two students who I've actually gotten there and still been around (several others have gone on to earn black belts after leaving for other cities). They worked VERY hard, Leelen has been in Judo since he was 6 years old, Dillon since he was I t hink 9 or 10. They both had severe ankle injuries before their shodan test in Steveston. Leelen wore a soft cast as well as a professionally wrapped ankle while doing NNK, Dillon had his ankle professionally wrapped as well.

    Both are also certified refs and trained as dojo assistants in the Canadian system, and help teach junior classes as well as my senior class.

    Ben

    Again congradulations it is always a great thing to produce fine kids like that. Thinking about it makes me feel old I have two yondans and a godan that were my students. I must now one of the old farts we used to laugh at.Surprised:o
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:19 am

    raphaelhudson wrote:be careful with this technique in randori, the extended arm in traditional TKG is a recipe for injury if you stuff it up

    I don't teach it that way in any case, so no worries. I suspect that extended arm is a sort of "exaggerated for effect" teaching point to show very clearly the principle(s) at work in the throw. Under conditions of shiai/randori, the principle can be applied without the extended arm. And if the arm does extend correctly and at the correct time, chances of injury are minimal.

    Ben
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:20 am

    judoratt wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    judoratt wrote:I remember your kids they were solid judokas, are they shodan by now? I have heard of the concept of using TSG as a building block it was a while back.

    After reading the original post I thought how rare outside NNK the clasic TSG is. In 25plus years I can only remember teaching it maybe twice outside NNK. It could be interesting working on it after the competitive season. Thanks for the "food for thought".SmileSmile

    BTW I can say I was here for Bens first post, prety cool.cheerscheers

    Bert

    Thanks Bert that means a lot coming from you.

    They are both shodan as of last year. My first two students who I've actually gotten there and still been around (several others have gone on to earn black belts after leaving for other cities). They worked VERY hard, Leelen has been in Judo since he was 6 years old, Dillon since he was I t hink 9 or 10. They both had severe ankle injuries before their shodan test in Steveston. Leelen wore a soft cast as well as a professionally wrapped ankle while doing NNK, Dillon had his ankle professionally wrapped as well.

    Both are also certified refs and trained as dojo assistants in the Canadian system, and help teach junior classes as well as my senior class.

    Ben

    Again congradulations it is always a great thing to produce fine kids like that. Thinking about it makes me feel old I have two yondans and a godan that were my students. I must now one of the old farts we used to laugh at.Surprised:o

    You are getting there, although I know you still kick some serious butt despite the impending "old fart" status.

    We'll be at the Steveston shiai Feb 16th, hope to see you there!

    Ben
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    judoratt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by judoratt on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:52 pm

    [quote="Ben Reinhardt"]
    judoratt wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    judoratt wrote:I remember your kids they were solid judokas, are they shodan by now? I have heard of the concept of using TSG as a building block it was a while back.

    After reading the original post I thought how rare outside NNK the clasic TSG is. In 25plus years I can only remember teaching it maybe twice outside NNK. It could be interesting working on it after the competitive season. Thanks for the "food for thought".SmileSmile

    BTW I can say I was here for Bens first post, prety cool.cheerscheers

    Bert

    Thanks Bert that means a lot coming from you.

    They are both shodan as of last year. My first two students who I've actually gotten there and still been around (several others have gone on to earn black belts after leaving for other cities). They worked VERY hard, Leelen has been in Judo since he was 6 years old, Dillon since he was I t hink 9 or 10. They both had severe ankle injuries before their shodan test in Steveston. Leelen wore a soft cast as well as a professionally wrapped ankle while doing NNK, Dillon had his ankle professionally wrapped as well.

    Both are also certified refs and trained as dojo assistants in the Canadian system, and help teach junior classes as well as my senior class.

    Ben

    Again congradulations it is always a great thing to produce fine kids like that. Thinking about it makes me feel old I have two yondans and a godan that were my students. I must now one of the old farts we used to laugh at.Surprised:o

    You are getting there, although I know you still kick some serious butt despite the impending "old fart" status.

    We'll be at the Steveston shiai Feb 16th, hope to see you there!

    Ben[/quote



    I will definately be there and hope you stay for the Sunday training. Maybe we can do dinner satdurday old man.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:33 am

    [quote="judoratt"]
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    judoratt wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    judoratt wrote:I remember your kids they were solid judokas, are they shodan by now? I have heard of the concept of using TSG as a building block it was a while back.

    After reading the original post I thought how rare outside NNK the clasic TSG is. In 25plus years I can only remember teaching it maybe twice outside NNK. It could be interesting working on it after the competitive season. Thanks for the "food for thought".SmileSmile

    BTW I can say I was here for Bens first post, prety cool.cheerscheers

    Bert

    Thanks Bert that means a lot coming from you.

    They are both shodan as of last year. My first two students who I've actually gotten there and still been around (several others have gone on to earn black belts after leaving for other cities). They worked VERY hard, Leelen has been in Judo since he was 6 years old, Dillon since he was I t hink 9 or 10. They both had severe ankle injuries before their shodan test in Steveston. Leelen wore a soft cast as well as a professionally wrapped ankle while doing NNK, Dillon had his ankle professionally wrapped as well.

    Both are also certified refs and trained as dojo assistants in the Canadian system, and help teach junior classes as well as my senior class.

    Ben

    Again congradulations it is always a great thing to produce fine kids like that. Thinking about it makes me feel old I have two yondans and a godan that were my students. I must now one of the old farts we used to laugh at.Surprised:o

    You are getting there, although I know you still kick some serious butt despite the impending "old fart" status.

    We'll be at the Steveston shiai Feb 16th, hope to see you there!

    Ben[/quote



    I will definately be there and hope you stay for the Sunday training. Maybe we can do dinner satdurday old man.

    I'm not sure about the Sunday training, the u15 boy probably needs to attend as part of making the BC team. Dinner would be great, it's a treat for me to go to Vancouver with all the different places to eat. Bonners Ferry has it's own charms, but a wide variety of places to dine isn't one of them!

    Back on topic, as time goes on I'm more and more conviced that TKG is a wonderful base throw to teach and practice. I see students become more and stable and in control on both feet, and start to naturally move to Harai Goshi, Uchi Mata, even Ashi Guruma at times. Of course, they still need help with learning those more complex and difficult throws (and the opportunities to apply them). But the confidence they gain using TKG really gives them a boost in moving towards more complexities.

    Most of the kids and adults in my senior class can now throw TKG moving backwards, sideways (with and against the grain), forwards, and circling, to left and right (Sode to opposite of normal side...left throw for righties). I've added in a left STKG from a right grip (opposite for my one lefty), then the combination of the left STKG back to a right TKG (or other throw as they fell best) for when uke avoids the first attempt, or to continue to the left with a left hand throw if that as well.

    So there is a nice progression to be had, one of many, of course, that builds to one possible system of attack, plus kumi kata that works into the same thing.

    I used to use Seoi Nage after O Goshi, but found that the proper general use of tsurite was not happening. This was partially due to my own lack of understanding and also teaching seoi nage as I had done it for years, adapted to my own body and capabilities, and partially because the tsurite of Seoi Nage is ideally kind of a two part motion. In TKG, one does uses the tsurite the same way initially as in the final throw, so it cuts out a step. Plus, that use of tsurite (and the general tsurikomi/tai sabaki/body shape(?)) is a generalized form applicable most judo throws one way or another.

    OK, enought content to cover our probably better in PM stuff!

    What do you think?

    Ben
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:43 am

    I see a lot of talk about tsurikomi goshi being the basis for harai goshi.

    I had always been taught that harai goshi was an extension of uki goshi. in my own (admittedly limited) experience I feel harai goshi has more in common with uki goshi than it does with tsurikomi goshi, and I use tsurikomi goshi a lot actually (it doesn't exactly look like the one in NNK, but it's still tsurikomi goshi).

    as I understand it harai goshi came about because uki goshi was Kano's favorite throw, and people would try to jump over it, so he added the sweeping action, and BAM! harai goshi was born.

    am I missing something?


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    JudoMojo

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by JudoMojo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:52 am

    genetic judoka wrote:I see a lot of talk about tsurikomi goshi being the basis for harai goshi.

    I had always been taught that harai goshi was an extension of uki goshi. in my own (admittedly limited) experience I feel harai goshi has more in common with uki goshi than it does with tsurikomi goshi, and I use tsurikomi goshi a lot actually (it doesn't exactly look like the one in NNK, but it's still tsurikomi goshi).

    as I understand it harai goshi came about because uki goshi was Kano's favorite throw, and people would try to jump over it, so he added the sweeping action, and BAM! harai goshi was born.

    am I missing something?


    I can totally see your reasoning.

    I always saw TKG as a throw where there is a big emphasis on getting lower than your opponent, whilst it is less necessary for harai goshi and uki goshi. Uki goshi has the tsurite grip round the back though. (Not that harai can't be done with that grip).
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:57 am

    see, I don't think of the throws in terms of the grips employed. I almost never do any throws from a grip behind the back as I have a hard time getting that grip against a skilled opponent. I do uki goshi from the lapel, same with harai goshi (though lately I've branched out to 2on1, 2on2, double lapel, etc.)


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    JudoMojo

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by JudoMojo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:17 am

    genetic judoka wrote:see, I don't think of the throws in terms of the grips employed. I almost never do any throws from a grip behind the back as I have a hard time getting that grip against a skilled opponent. I do uki goshi from the lapel, same with harai goshi (though lately I've branched out to 2on1, 2on2, double lapel, etc.)

    Hmm I always assumed that uki goshi without the round the back grip would just turn into some sort of TKG.
    The o goshi grip is weird for me, depends who I'm fighting whether or not I can get it. Sometimes I just end up with it by default. Its easier to get in kenka yotsu I think. Really like it when I can get it, I find I can get massive throws even against people that outweigh me by a bit.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:34 am

    JudoMojo wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:I see a lot of talk about tsurikomi goshi being the basis for harai goshi.

    I had always been taught that harai goshi was an extension of uki goshi. in my own (admittedly limited) experience I feel harai goshi has more in common with uki goshi than it does with tsurikomi goshi, and I use tsurikomi goshi a lot actually (it doesn't exactly look like the one in NNK, but it's still tsurikomi goshi).

    as I understand it harai goshi came about because uki goshi was Kano's favorite throw, and people would try to jump over it, so he added the sweeping action, and BAM! harai goshi was born.

    am I missing something?


    I can totally see your reasoning.

    I always saw TKG as a throw where there is a big emphasis on getting lower than your opponent, whilst it is less necessary for harai goshi and uki goshi. Uki goshi has the tsurite grip round the back though. (Not that harai can't be done with that grip).

    TKG is great for teaching to sense where to place tori CG relative to uke. TGK can be done with a deep knee bend or not (NNK version tends to go deeper to illustrate a method of overcoming resistance to a forward throw in which uke stiffens his body and creates friction between his feet and the tatami...same idea works in many throws in similar situation).

    Tori CG still needs to be lowered relative to uke in HG and UG. The key thing is to be able to learn to feel that relationship and what is enough in any given situation. As TKG can be done both ways and in between, it can achieve that purpose in a general fashion.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:41 am

    JudoMojo wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:see, I don't think of the throws in terms of the grips employed. I almost never do any throws from a grip behind the back as I have a hard time getting that grip against a skilled opponent. I do uki goshi from the lapel, same with harai goshi (though lately I've branched out to 2on1, 2on2, double lapel, etc.)

    Hmm I always assumed that uki goshi without the round the back grip would just turn into some sort of TKG.
    The o goshi grip is weird for me, depends who I'm fighting whether or not I can get it. Sometimes I just end up with it by default. Its easier to get in kenka yotsu I think. Really like it when I can get it, I find I can get massive throws even against people that outweigh me by a bit.

    I'd have to review Daigo Sensei book to know for sure on the TKG vs UG versus grip position. I know that if the belt is grabbed, it is Tsuri goshi (O or Ko). Over the back grip, for example, is TKG. I'm pretty sure O Goshi requires (according to the Kodokan) a grip around the waist but not grabbing the belt (which is what I was originally taught over 30 years ago. The hand around the waist in O Goshi presses uke to tori, but does not grab. In Uki Goshi it can grab and assist the throw, in Tsuri Goshi, the hand on belt acts as the tsurite and "lifts".

    Anyway, in terms of randori or shiai, those all can get mixed together and still work, or shift back and forth depending the situation.
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    judoratt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by judoratt on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:44 pm

    [quote="Ben Reinhardt"]
    judoratt wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    judoratt wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    judoratt wrote:I remember your kids they were solid judokas, are they shodan by now? I have heard of the concept of using TSG as a building block it was a while back.

    After reading the original post I thought how rare outside NNK the clasic TSG is. In 25plus years I can only remember teaching it maybe twice outside NNK. It could be interesting working on it after the competitive season. Thanks for the "food for thought".SmileSmile

    BTW I can say I was here for Bens first post, prety cool.cheers

    Bert

    Thanks Bert that means a lot coming from you.

    They are both shodan as of last year. My first two students who I've actually gotten there and still been around (several others have gone on to earn black belts after leaving for other cities). They worked VERY hard, Leelen has been in Judo since he was 6 years old, Dillon since he was I t hink 9 or 10. They both had severe ankle injuries before their shodan test in Steveston. Leelen wore a soft cast as well as a professionally wrapped ankle while doing NNK, Dillon had his ankle professionally wrapped as well.

    Both are also certified refs and trained as dojo assistants in the Canadian system, and help teach junior classes as well as my senior class.

    Ben

    Again congradulations it is always a great thing to produce fine kids like that. Thinking about it makes me feel old I have two yondans and a godan that were my students. I must now one of the old farts we used to laugh at.Surprised:o

    You are getting there, although I know you still kick some serious butt despite the impending "old fart" status.

    We'll be at the Steveston shiai Feb 16th, hope to see you there!

    Ben[/quote



    I will definately be there and hope you stay for the Sunday training. Maybe we can do dinner satdurday old man.

    I'm not sure about the Sunday training, the u15 boy probably needs to attend as part of making the BC team. Dinner would be great, it's a treat for me to go to Vancouver with all the different places to eat. Bonners Ferry has it's own charms, but a wide variety of places to dine isn't one of them!

    Back on topic, as time goes on I'm more and more conviced that TKG is a wonderful base throw to teach and practice. I see students become more and stable and in control on both feet, and start to naturally move to Harai Goshi, Uchi Mata, even Ashi Guruma at times. Of course, they still need help with learning those more complex and difficult throws (and the opportunities to apply them). But the confidence they gain using TKG really gives them a boost in moving towards more complexities.

    Most of the kids and adults in my senior class can now throw TKG moving backwards, sideways (with and against the grain), forwards, and circling, to left and right (Sode to opposite of normal side...left throw for righties). I've added in a left STKG from a right grip (opposite for my one lefty), then the combination of the left STKG back to a right TKG (or other throw as they fell best) for when uke avoids the first attempt, or to continue to the left with a left hand throw if that as well.

    So there is a nice progression to be had, one of many, of course, that builds to one possible system of attack, plus kumi kata that works into the same thing.

    I used to use Seoi Nage after O Goshi, but found that the proper general use of tsurite was not happening. This was partially due to my own lack of understanding and also teaching seoi nage as I had done it for years, adapted to my own body and capabilities, and partially because the tsurite of Seoi Nage is ideally kind of a two part motion. In TKG, one does uses the tsurite the same way initially as in the final throw, so it cuts out a step. Plus, that use of tsurite (and the general tsurikomi/tai sabaki/body shape(?)) is a generalized form applicable most judo throws one way or another.

    OK, enought content to cover our probably better in PM stuff!

    What do you think?

    Ben

    Dinner it is, I would be happy to keep a eye on your kid during the Sunday training if it is needed. As far as TKG i plan to work on it after the competitive season thanks for the advice. alienalien
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    cuivien

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by cuivien on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:11 pm

    I actually have the Daigo book right in front of me (was checking some stuff on koshi guruma for class last night), so let me quote from the "Key points to the technique":

    Ô-goshi:
    At the moment uke's right foot passes the back of his left foot, tori changes the action of both hands to raising uke forward and upwards, which causes uke's balance to break forward as he cannot support his weight on his right foot after stepping it back. Understanding and getting the timing correct for the positioning for the throw, or tsukuri, is very important.
    When uke moves his right foot back, tori should step in with his right foot, driving uke's foot back. Tori turns and faces the other way by moving his left foot and maneuvering his body, and pulls uke's body tight against him with the right arm holding the back of his waist.
    At this moment, tori lowers his hip and holds the back of uke's waist deeply with his right arm over the back of uke's belt. Then, he straightens both knees and, pulling uke's body up, throws him down.
    In the following technique, which is not classified under o-goshi, tori grips uke's belt on the back of his waist with the right hand and, lifting him up, loads uke onto the back of his waist and throws him down. This is tsuri-goshi.
    Tori catches hold of uke's back from over his right shoulder (or arm) and, lifting him up, loads him onto the back of his waist and throws him. This is tsurikomi-goshi.


    Uki-goshi:
    Firstly, tori assumes a stable right position by stepping his right foot inside uke's right foot in time with uke stepping back with his right foot, and breaks uke's balance by lifting him up with both hands.
    Tori lowers his right shoulder and, bending his body, inserts his right arm deep through uke's left armpit. He holds the back of the waist while opening the body towards the left, and steps his left foot back and round.
    At this point tori's right foot is inside uke's right foot, and his left foot is positioned outside of uke's left foot. His right leg is naturally straight, and the left is slightly bent. Bending his body, tori's right arm is inserted deep enough to hold the side of uke's right hip, and he pulls him, so that the front of uke's body is tight against the right side of tori's body from the armpit to the waist.
    (...)
    Tori leans forward, lifts uke's body upwards, and at the moment he loads uke's body onto the back of his right hip, he twists to the left and throws uke abruptly and powerfully around the fulcrum of his right hip.
    If tori pulls uke's body up and throws him at this point, it is an o-goshi technique


    Harai-goshi:
    The first key point in this technique is to draw out uke's right foot, and break his balance sufficiently in the right front corner.
    Tori pulls uke's chest tight against his back in the same way as uki-goshi. Therefore, tori will be more stable if he supports his weight with his left foot slightly outside the front of uke's left foot, and he will be able to sweep uke's body forward more effectively. On the other hand, if he enters the front of uke's body too deeply (supporting his weight with his left foot inside uke's left foot) not only will uke push him over because his balance is breaking toward the outside of his left foot but his right leg will cut through empty space when he sweeps up too. (...)


    Tsurikomi-goshi:
    At the instant uke's right foot passes behind his left foot, tori lifts him forward with both hands and breaks his balance. Tori must seize that moment without delay. If uke successfully transfers his weight onto that foot, tori cannot break his balance forward for the tsukuri.
    Tori lowers his waist to enter inside uke's chest. He lifts and pulls upward with the outside of the right arm (on the side of the little finger) on uke's left armpit and left chest area, while he pulls toward the right side of his own chest with his left hand, so that uke is tight against the back of his waist and the right side of his back, and his body is on the back of tori's waist. Similar to yoko-guruma, tori's buttocks do not stick out from uke's side, but his body is parallel to uke's and tight against it.
    Tori straighten both knees, and raises uke by scooping him up by his abdomen with the back of his waist, the throws him by twisting his body to the left.

    Hanon

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:52 pm

    I am guessing here but that guess would be the above clips are translations from one language to another?

    Mike

    wdax

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by wdax on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:31 am

    Hi Mike,

    good to read this from you.... I don´t own the english book, but I helped working on the german version, which is a direct translation from japanese including all content of the japanese three volume-work.

    I found the quotes very odd, but did not have the time to cross-check them with the german version. I still have the raw-translations of the texts on my PC... but: what is the exact question? Only definitions of Koshi-waza and their names? This is a bit tricky, because the naming of Koshi-waza is not consistant in itself.

    Some waza are defined by the position and action of Tori´s right hand (right-sided execution), no matter of feet position or hip action:
    Belt: --> Tsuri goshi
    around neck: --> Koshi-guruma
    Uke´s left sleeve: --> Sode-tsuri-komi-goshi
    elsewhere at the left side of Uke´s gi (as long it is still Koshi-waza and not f.ex. seoi-nage or Tai-otoshi): --> Tsurikomi-goshi

    Not so with O-goshi and Uki-goshi. Both have (almost) the same hand action and position, but different use of the hip.

    A problem is Koshi-guruma, which was originally defined by a different hip position ("crossing-hip", what means, that Tori turns much more then 180° and "wheels" Uke over the hip) independent Tori´s right hand action. Newly it is defined by the position of the hand around Uke´s neck - independent form from hip action. The problem is discussed in the full volumes of Daigo´s work and his conclusion was, that further discussion is required.


    Last edited by wdax on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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    cuivien

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by cuivien on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:21 am

    Hanon, wdax: you are right. The English version is translated and heavily edited compared to the original piece by Daigo, which I unfortunately did not have the available pocketmoney to buy the last time I visited Kodokan... :-/


    The full description of the book reads:
    Daigo, Toshiro; White, Francoise (trans.) (2005). "Kodokan Judo: Throwing Techniques", Tokyo: Kodansha International. ISBN: 978-4-7700-2330-8


    Every technique is listed more or less in the same fashion:
    - short description (just a couple of lines)
    - sono ichi (plus sometimes a sub-heading called "application")
    - key points to the technique
    - sono ni, san, yon, etc.
    - the last one is usually sub-headed "points to consider on "technique XYZ""




    edit: does anyone know who this Francoise White is? I googled the name and found that she (apparently) is the one who translated "The Canon of Judo" as well, but no detailed info... *NBK, I'm looking in your direction since you seems to know a bit of everything Kodokan-vise* (Very Happy)

    Hanon

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Hanon on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:50 am

    wdax wrote:Hi Mike,

    good to read this from you.... I don´t own the english book, but I helped working on the german version, which is a direct translation from japanese including all content of the japanese three volume-work.

    I found the quotes very odd, but did not have the time to cross-check them with the german version. I still have the raw-translations of the texts on my PC... but: what is the exact question? Only definitions of Koshi-waza and their names? This is a bit tricky, because the naming of Koshi-waza is not consistant in itself.

    Some waza are defined by the position and action of Tori´s right hand (right-sided execution), no matter of feet position or hip action:
    Belt: --> Tsuri goshi
    around neck: --> Koshi-guruma
    Uke´s left sleeve: --> Sode-tsuri-komi-goshi
    elsewhere at the left side of Uke´s gi (as long it is still Koshi-waza and not f.ex. seoi-nage or Tai-otoshi): --> Tsurikomi-goshi

    Not so with O-goshi and Uki-goshi. Both have (almost) the same hand action and position, but different use of the hip.

    A problem is Koshi-guruma, which was originally defined by a different hip position ("crossing-hip", what means, that Tori turns much more then 180° and "wheels" Uke over the hip) independent Tori´s right hand action. Newly it is defined by the position of the hand around Uke´s neck - independent form from hip action. The problem is discussed in the full volumes of Daigo´s work and his conclusion was, that further discussion is required.

    HELLO Dax Sensei......

    I cant tell you how nice it is to read your post and learn you are posting here.

    To be honest I only read the tsuri komi goshi description and became very confused, that is why I knew it simply must be a translation, if you read it we have tori's hips against the CHEST of uke at one point?

    So nice to speak with you again.

    Hug,

    Mike


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:40 am

    And yet ... it is possible to do ô-goshi while grabbing the belt, and do tsuri-goshi while not grabbing the belt, just as it is possible to hiza-guruma at the ankle and sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi at the knee ...


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    wdax

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by wdax on Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:50 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:And yet ... it is possible to do ô-goshi while grabbing the belt, and do tsuri-goshi while not grabbing the belt, just as it is possible to hiza-guruma at the ankle and sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi at the knee ...

    Yes - and I agree more with you, then with this definition....
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:31 am

    [quote="judoratt"]
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    judoratt wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    judoratt wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    judoratt wrote:I remember your kids they were solid judokas, are they shodan by now? I have heard of the concept of using TSG as a building block it was a while back.

    After reading the original post I thought how rare outside NNK the clasic TSG is. In 25plus years I can only remember teaching it maybe twice outside NNK. It could be interesting working on it after the competitive season. Thanks for the "food for thought".SmileSmile

    BTW I can say I was here for Bens first post, prety cool.cheers

    Bert

    Thanks Bert that means a lot coming from you.

    They are both shodan as of last year. My first two students who I've actually gotten there and still been around (several others have gone on to earn black belts after leaving for other cities). They worked VERY hard, Leelen has been in Judo since he was 6 years old, Dillon since he was I t hink 9 or 10. They both had severe ankle injuries before their shodan test in Steveston. Leelen wore a soft cast as well as a professionally wrapped ankle while doing NNK, Dillon had his ankle professionally wrapped as well.

    Both are also certified refs and trained as dojo assistants in the Canadian system, and help teach junior classes as well as my senior class.

    Ben

    Again congradulations it is always a great thing to produce fine kids like that. Thinking about it makes me feel old I have two yondans and a godan that were my students. I must now one of the old farts we used to laugh at.Surprised:o

    You are getting there, although I know you still kick some serious butt despite the impending "old fart" status.

    We'll be at the Steveston shiai Feb 16th, hope to see you there!

    Ben[/quote



    I will definately be there and hope you stay for the Sunday training. Maybe we can do dinner satdurday old man.

    I'm not sure about the Sunday training, the u15 boy probably needs to attend as part of making the BC team. Dinner would be great, it's a treat for me to go to Vancouver with all the different places to eat. Bonners Ferry has it's own charms, but a wide variety of places to dine isn't one of them!

    Back on topic, as time goes on I'm more and more conviced that TKG is a wonderful base throw to teach and practice. I see students become more and stable and in control on both feet, and start to naturally move to Harai Goshi, Uchi Mata, even Ashi Guruma at times. Of course, they still need help with learning those more complex and difficult throws (and the opportunities to apply them). But the confidence they gain using TKG really gives them a boost in moving towards more complexities.

    Most of the kids and adults in my senior class can now throw TKG moving backwards, sideways (with and against the grain), forwards, and circling, to left and right (Sode to opposite of normal side...left throw for righties). I've added in a left STKG from a right grip (opposite for my one lefty), then the combination of the left STKG back to a right TKG (or other throw as they fell best) for when uke avoids the first attempt, or to continue to the left with a left hand throw if that as well.

    So there is a nice progression to be had, one of many, of course, that builds to one possible system of attack, plus kumi kata that works into the same thing.

    I used to use Seoi Nage after O Goshi, but found that the proper general use of tsurite was not happening. This was partially due to my own lack of understanding and also teaching seoi nage as I had done it for years, adapted to my own body and capabilities, and partially because the tsurite of Seoi Nage is ideally kind of a two part motion. In TKG, one does uses the tsurite the same way initially as in the final throw, so it cuts out a step. Plus, that use of tsurite (and the general tsurikomi/tai sabaki/body shape(?)) is a generalized form applicable most judo throws one way or another.

    OK, enought content to cover our probably better in PM stuff!

    What do you think?

    Ben

    Dinner it is, I would be happy to keep a eye on your kid during the Sunday training if it is needed. As far as TKG i plan to work on it after the competitive season thanks for the advice. alienalien

    Thanks, Bert. Not sure what his parents plan is...it's a bit of a drive back to Creston from Vancouver. I'm traveling with them so if they stay I'll stay. I'm off on Mondays anyway, so it's no big deal.

    LOL, I'm sure your TKG is fine, Bert.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:40 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:And yet ... it is possible to do ô-goshi while grabbing the belt, and do tsuri-goshi while not grabbing the belt, just as it is possible to hiza-guruma at the ankle and sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi at the knee ...

    The O Goshi of course, tori can grab the belt, it's what tori does with it that matters. In order to not confuse begginers/novices, I simply tell them not to grab the belt for O Goshi. My more advanced students get a more detailed explanation. As for Tsuri Goshi, you might have to explain a bit more. Are you saying grabbing the jacket near the belt, (or maybe the top edge of the zubon/pants (kind of like giving uke a "wedgie") would suffice for Tsuri Goshi as long as the "tsuri" action is applied with that hand?

    The Hiza Guruma/Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi I understamd. The two throwing participles are pretty distinct even to me, although they too can blend together depending on the situation.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:32 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:And yet ... it is possible to do ô-goshi while grabbing the belt, and do tsuri-goshi while not grabbing the belt, just as it is possible to hiza-guruma at the ankle and sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi at the knee ...

    The O Goshi of course, tori can grab the belt, it's what tori does with it that matters. In order to not confuse begginers/novices, I simply tell them not to grab the belt for O Goshi. My more advanced students get a more detailed explanation. As for Tsuri Goshi, you might have to explain a bit more. Are you saying grabbing the jacket near the belt, (or maybe the top edge of the zubon/pants (kind of like giving uke a "wedgie") would suffice for Tsuri Goshi as long as the "tsuri" action is applied with that hand?

    The Hiza Guruma/Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi I understamd. The two throwing participles are pretty distinct even to me, although they too can blend together depending on the situation.

    Indeed, and you had already done a good job explaining before. When we teach or write books we use plain and simple terminology, but it isn't always accurate. Usually that isn't a problem, but once in a blue moon a scenario appears that puts the inaccuracy into light. So we tend to say for tsuri-goshi you have to grab the belt. That's clear to a novice. But as you had already correctly indicated, really this throw requires a lifting up action with the arm, while in the ô- and uki-goshi you just firmly glue the opponent against your body, for uki-goshi tai-sabaki action largely doing the throw and in ô-goshi the hip doing most of the work. Van De Walle, for example, used to grab over the shoulder (which was highly unpleasant, by the way); from that position he sometimes just lowered his hand further down your back grabbed your gi and pulled you up on the hip. You could not resist that huge shoulder unless you yourself were of the calibre of Khubuluri or Parisi. That was no doubt a tsuri-goshi, not a tsuri-komi-goshi, and not an ô-goshi.

    Then we sometimes get throws that are so close to the line that two principles start to blend into another one.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Tsurikomi Goshi questions

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:47 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:And yet ... it is possible to do ô-goshi while grabbing the belt, and do tsuri-goshi while not grabbing the belt, just as it is possible to hiza-guruma at the ankle and sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi at the knee ...

    The O Goshi of course, tori can grab the belt, it's what tori does with it that matters. In order to not confuse begginers/novices, I simply tell them not to grab the belt for O Goshi. My more advanced students get a more detailed explanation. As for Tsuri Goshi, you might have to explain a bit more. Are you saying grabbing the jacket near the belt, (or maybe the top edge of the zubon/pants (kind of like giving uke a "wedgie") would suffice for Tsuri Goshi as long as the "tsuri" action is applied with that hand?

    The Hiza Guruma/Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi I understamd. The two throwing participles are pretty distinct even to me, although they too can blend together depending on the situation.

    Indeed, and you had already done a good job explaining before. When we teach or write books we use plain and simple terminology, but it isn't always accurate. Usually that isn't a problem, but once in a blue moon a scenario appears that puts the inaccuracy into light. So we tend to say for tsuri-goshi you have to grab the belt. That's clear to a novice. But as you had already correctly indicated, really this throw requires a lifting up action with the arm, while in the ô- and uki-goshi you just firmly glue the opponent against your body, for uki-goshi tai-sabaki action largely doing the throw and in ô-goshi the hip doing most of the work. Van De Walle, for example, used to grab over the shoulder (which was highly unpleasant, by the way); from that position he sometimes just lowered his hand further down your back grabbed your gi and pulled you up on the hip. You could not resist that huge shoulder unless you yourself were of the calibre of Khubuluri or Parisi. That was no doubt a tsuri-goshi, not a tsuri-komi-goshi, and not an ô-goshi.

    Then we sometimes get throws that are so close to the line that two principles start to blend into another one.

    Thank you for the clarification. Some confusion may result for those who watch the Kodokan Nage Waza videos, or even read Daigo Sensei book.

    In his book, I think Tsurikomi Goshi and Tsuri goshi are differentiated by whether or not one grabs the belt. This would be the English version of the book, which as you have pointed is abridged and has a lot of translation mistakes.

    Now I wish I had kept with German instead of switching to Spanish in high school ! Lots more cute latinas in Texas, though, rather than Germans, LOL!

    Anyway, I get the conceptual difference. If I have not misremembered Daigo Sensei book, then I suppose it's a simplification written there.

    As for Van De Wall, my sensei did some Judo with him. He told me he was not quite sure he was human in regards to his strength and the amount of power he could generate!

    Ben

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