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    DougNZ

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    Red belt with white squares

    Post by DougNZ on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:49 am

    I have seen a kohaku obi that is red with white squares spaced about 6-10 inches apart. I think it is French in origin. What is it? Who uses it? For what rank?

    JakubMB

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by JakubMB on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:14 pm

    I remember someone mentioning on JudoForum years ago, that in France the white segments get narrower every time you progress in grades. Or in other words the red colour is taking over until you reach 9 dan, when it's all red. Not sure if it's true though.

    DougNZ

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by DougNZ on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:22 pm

    I had heard that but can find no official word on the same.

    Here's Kataaro's belt: http://www.kataaro.com/Products/Panel-Belt-Red-Square-White__49312RW.aspx Tom, at Kataaro, does not know who uses it and for what. He put me on to one customer in Switzerland, who does karate.

    Here's an example of a French judoka from the 1970s: http://jcrochefort.fr/historique

    Jonesy

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:15 am

    JakubMB wrote:I remember someone mentioning on JudoForum years ago, that in France the white segments get narrower every time you progress in grades. Or in other words the red colour is taking over until you reach 9 dan, when it's all red. Not sure if it's true though.
    See the bottom of this page - it is self-evident and no real French language skills are needed: http://seguin.jacques.free.fr/gli4.htm

    JakubMB

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by JakubMB on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:55 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    JakubMB wrote:I remember someone mentioning on JudoForum years ago, that in France the white segments get narrower every time you progress in grades. Or in other words the red colour is taking over until you reach 9 dan, when it's all red. Not sure if it's true though.
    See the bottom of this page - it is self-evident and no real French language skills are needed: http://seguin.jacques.free.fr/gli4.htm

    Why thank you, good sir! Don't remember seeing this page, but if that isn't proof then what is?.Smile

    Jonesy

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:09 am

    Not sure if it has taken hold in France. I have never seen them on sale, perhaps the FFJDA give kodansha such obi to promotees.


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    JakubMB

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by JakubMB on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:14 am

    To be frank it would be kind of half-assed to make people buy kohaku obi considering it is a "badge of honour" to some degree. I'm actually wondering whether my sensei had to buy one, or was he presented with one, when he got promoted to 6dan... Got to ask when I get to see him (hopefully soon)

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:23 am

    JakubMB wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:
    JakubMB wrote:I remember someone mentioning on JudoForum years ago, that in France the white segments get narrower every time you progress in grades. Or in other words the red colour is taking over until you reach 9 dan, when it's all red. Not sure if it's true though.
    See the bottom of this page - it is self-evident and no real French language skills are needed: http://seguin.jacques.free.fr/gli4.htm

    Why thank you, good sir! Don't remember seeing this page, but if that isn't proof then what is?.Smile

    That is to say ... the text actually does not say that "the white segments get narrower every time you progress in grades". It says that both the red and white panels get shorter, namely from 20 to 15 to 10 cm (just looking at the text, since the pictures show an inconsistent image). The Roman numbers look as natural on a judo belt as Daigo-sensei teaching kata in a black letter kimono with the words shihan embroidered in High-German Gothic script surrounded by Christmas lights. Hopefully wisdom will prevail one day and someone will realize that the appropriate color to wear on a daily basis is plain and simple, black.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:30 am

    JakubMB wrote:To be frank it would be kind of half-assed to make people buy kohaku obi considering it is a "badge of honour" to some degree. I'm actually wondering whether my sensei had to buy one, or was he presented with one, when he got promoted to 6dan... Got to ask when I get to see him (hopefully soon)

    Most organizations do present a kohaku belt upon promotion to 6th dan, and some another one for 7th and 8th dan even though they might be identical. You obviously do not have to wear them as sometimes they can look geeky since federations and organizations typically acquire the cheapest version from a local vendor. If the person getting promoted, is also the teacher a club, oftentimes his/her students all together buy him/her a nicer version usually with the name embroidered. A considerable number of sensei (or their spouse on duty) ruin their first kohaku belt due to unfamiliarity with washing instructions, thus having a second one (which they then conclude they won't put in the laundry), usually helps.


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by DougNZ on Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:47 am

    Thank you for the information on the French 'system'. Back to the original post, anyone with information on the long red sections with square white sections?

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:21 pm

    DougNZ wrote:Thank you for the information on the French 'system'. Back to the original post, anyone with information on the long red sections with square white sections?

    Doug,

    I am not familiar with such a belt as being standard in the French system to indicate any rank. As you know, Kawaishi Mikinosuke's kohaku belt rather than red/white panels had red/white squares. This was not specific to his rank of 7th dan though. I presume this simply was reflective of an era that such belts were so rare that they were not mass-produced but hand-work, so every belt simply was a unique piece. Maybe what you saw was just an example of another custom-made belt, a unique piece. You occasionally also see things that are not reflective of anything in jûdô, but are an anomaly or error without the person so realizing. I recently saw a picture of a well-known British jûdôka wearing a 'kohaku' belt. That belt though rather than having red and white panels, had white and red panels, meaning, it started with white. I presume the person may not have realized, but that actually is not a jûdô belt but a karate belt. So in that case it did not signify anything in particular in jûdô, but was in error. To the best of my knowledge there has never been in the French system any rank that had a specific belt prescribed as the one you describe.


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    judoratt

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by judoratt on Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:46 pm

    JakubMB wrote:To be frank it would be kind of half-assed to make people buy kohaku obi considering it is a "badge of honour" to some degree. I'm actually wondering whether my sensei had to buy one, or was he presented with one, when he got promoted to 6dan... Got to ask when I get to see him (hopefully soon)

    A few years back I was promoted to Rokudan one of my students asked if he could buy my kohaku obi. He came back to Seattle to present it along with some past students and did a great job with the presentation it was a beautiful Kusakura belt. A couple years later the subject came up about how he got the belt. He had a team mate Tetsu contact his dad to have it made in Japan I thought it was prety cool. His team mate Tetsu Okano and his dad is Isao Okano. Prety cool that Mr. Okano had time to do this.

    JakubMB

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by JakubMB on Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:27 pm

    judoratt wrote:
    JakubMB wrote:To be frank it would be kind of half-assed to make people buy kohaku obi considering it is a "badge of honour" to some degree. I'm actually wondering whether my sensei had to buy one, or was he presented with one, when he got promoted to 6dan... Got to ask when I get to see him (hopefully soon)

    A few years back I was promoted to Rokudan one of my students asked if he could buy my kohaku obi. He came back to Seattle to present it along with some past students and did a great job with the presentation it was a beautiful Kusakura belt. A couple years later the subject came up about how he got the belt. He had a team mate Tetsu contact his dad to have it made in Japan I thought it was prety cool. His team mate Tetsu Okano and his dad is Isao Okano. Prety cool that Mr. Okano had time to do this.

    My friend brought back a Kohaku Obi back from a scholarship to Japan to present to our Sensei. My Sensei was really happy even though the belt was a bit on the long side.

    judoratt

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by judoratt on Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:32 pm

    JakubMB wrote:
    judoratt wrote:
    JakubMB wrote:To be frank it would be kind of half-assed to make people buy kohaku obi considering it is a "badge of honour" to some degree. I'm actually wondering whether my sensei had to buy one, or was he presented with one, when he got promoted to 6dan... Got to ask when I get to see him (hopefully soon)

    A few years back I was promoted to Rokudan one of my students asked if he could buy my kohaku obi. He came back to Seattle to present it along with some past students and did a great job with the presentation it was a beautiful Kusakura belt. A couple years later the subject came up about how he got the belt. He had a team mate Tetsu contact his dad to have it made in Japan I thought it was prety cool. His team mate Tetsu Okano and his dad is Isao Okano. Prety cool that Mr. Okano had time to do this.

    My friend brought back a Kohaku Obi back from a scholarship to Japan to present to our Sensei. My Sensei was really happy even though the belt was a bit on the long side.

    Long is good most of my belts seem to get shorter as time goes by. Surprised

    JakubMB

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by JakubMB on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:15 pm

    judoratt wrote:
    Long is good most of my belts seem to get shorter as time goes by. Surprised

    Seems to be the case here too. My belts are always shrinking...

    DougNZ

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by DougNZ on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:34 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:As you know, Kawaishi Mikinosuke's kohaku belt rather than red/white panels had red/white squares... I recently saw a picture of a well-known British jûdôka wearing a 'kohaku' belt. That belt though rather than having red and white panels, had white and red panels, meaning, it started with white. I presume the person may not have realized, but that actually is not a jûdô belt but a karate belt.

    There is an early 1950s photograph of Kawaishi and Awazu sensei together. Both were wearing kohaku obi of red and white squares. Kawaishi's had white ends and Awazu's had red ends. I believe that Kawaishi wore the same belt for the rest of his life; he was wearing it, for example, in Standing judo.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:33 am

    DougNZ wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:As you know, Kawaishi Mikinosuke's kohaku belt rather than red/white panels had red/white squares... I recently saw a picture of a well-known British jûdôka wearing a 'kohaku' belt. That belt though rather than having red and white panels, had white and red panels, meaning, it started with white. I presume the person may not have realized, but that actually is not a jûdô belt but a karate belt.

    There is an early 1950s photograph of Kawaishi and Awazu sensei together. Both were wearing kohaku obi of red and white squares. Kawaishi's had white ends and Awazu's had red ends. I believe that Kawaishi wore the same belt for the rest of his life; he was wearing it, for example, in Standing judo.

    Correct. There are in fact several pictures like that, such as, for example:





    This also supports my point ... in that some of the things one saw were not "standards" or something official. Kawaishi's belt starting and ending with white panels rather than red, did not "mean anything" but was a rather an incidental consequence of something one did, i.e. custom-made without realizing that something was different or without that difference being intentional in the sense of meaning something.

    One of my first red- & white belts that was a gift from one of my clubs actually also started and ended with white. At the time I did not realize. Then I realized, the manufacturer was actually located on Okinawa; that said enough; it was thus a ... karate belt, rather than a judo belt, and those who had ordered it didn't know either that there was a difference.


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by DougNZ on Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:21 am

    I would be interested in evidence to support you assertion; at what point in time, by whom and acting under what authority did a 'rule' become born stating that judo kohaku belts had red ends whilst karate had white ends?

    Could it have been that a cheap belt manufacturer producing white-ended kohaku obi just happened to be located in Okinawa, the home of karate? I recently saw a cheap kohaku belt out of Australia that had one red and one white end. Is that for Australian masters of both judo and karate? Smile

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:06 am

    DougNZ wrote:I would be interested in evidence to support you assertion; at what point in time, by whom and acting under what authority did a 'rule' become born stating that judo kohaku belts had red ends whilst karate had white ends?

    You want evidence ? I assume you also want that for free ?

    What does "kohaku" mean ? Doe it mean white and red ? No, it literally means "red and white", first red, then white. The colors are derived from the traditional opposition of red vs. white in the Genpei war (1180–1185), i.e. the respective colors of the Taira vs. the Minamoto clan. Hence competition of something between two teams is often referred to as 'kohaku', i.e. red vs. white. The same colors are found back on the kōhaku maku 紅白幕, the red and white Japanese festival curtains, which similarly start with red, then white, not white, than red, and they also end on red. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dhaku_maku

    In other words, if used in stripes, 'kohaku' is understood to mean starting by red and ending on red. The same colors going back to the Taira and Minamoto later after the Genpei war also became the two colors for Japan's national flag.

    By whom ad acting under what authority did such rule become that jûdô kohaku bels had red ends ? Um, by Kanô himself under the authority of shihan of Kôdôkan jûdô. At what point in time ? They were introduced in March of 1930 (some sources say March 1926). Evidence ? Kanô's own jûdô book (he only wrote one book on jûdô; I am not considering the booklet published by the Japanese Tourist Board a book), thus:

    Kanō Jigorō: Jūdō kyōhon jōkan [A textbook of jūdō]. Tōkyō: Shushiki Kaisha; 1931, p. 7.

    The idea originally was that people would wear these special belts all the time, but a modification was made after Kanô's death, and under Jirô Nangô in 1943. It was then made a rule that during ceremonial occasions 9th dan holders should wear red belts instead of black belts (after Kanô's death and the limitation to 10 dan ranks, red belts were changed to start from 9th instead of 10th dan). Initially Kanô had determined that kohaku belts would also include 9th dan.

    You will not find depictions of red and white belts in jûdô from before that date. In Kanô's 1931 book you'll see them being worn by Kanda-sensei and Mifune-sensei. These are some of the oldest depictions of jûdô's kohaku belt.

    There are older depictions of the kōhaku maku, and they started and ended on red. Here's an older depiction from 1920, but it does not allow to see it's begin and end:



    This one allows you to see begin and end, which each time indeed properly is red, which is why the term is 'kohaku' and not 'haku-ko':



    I am not 100% certain about the kujiramku, which are the black/white death screens. That term does not literally include the order of colors, and more over in English "black and white" is an expres​sion(cfr. "black and white photography", "black and white movie") but not "white and black", so I am not 100% certain if variation there is allowed.

    DougNZ wrote:
    Could it have been that a cheap belt manufacturer producing white-ended kohaku obi just happened to be located in Okinawa, the home of karate? I recently saw a cheap kohaku belt out of Australia that had one red and one white end. Is that for Australian masters of both judo and karate? Smile

    The belt maker in Okinawa does not exactly make "cheap belts". It was a Shureidô 守礼堂 belt. If one thinks about it, the confusion isn't really possible, because ... Shureidô does not even make jûdô equipment, only karate (and kobudô) equipment and is quite conservative. Thus logically the belt could not even be a jûdô belt. (I note though that these days they seem to have adopted their product line: the Japanese page only lists black belts and lower colored belts: http://www.shureido-karate.com/SHOP/370287/list.html, whereas the US website also includes a jûdô-style kohaku belt).

    The case of karate is, however, far more complicated and I cannot satisfactorily answer your question with regard to that aspect. The reason is simply that karate is completely divided over numerous styles, with often Okinawan styles being distinguished from 'Japanese' karate styles, and Japanese styles also being different from each other. As far as I know the term "kohaku belt" is not typically used in karate by Japanese. Some styles maintain black belts all the way, some Okinawan styles incorporate one or two horizontal stripes for high ranks, and there are numerous varieties such as black-/white-paneled belts, and all kinds of other things. Some masters, such as Yamaguchi-sensei in Gôjû-ryû or Chitose-sensei wore red belts. Does the JKA even use colored belts at all for high dan ranks ? Dont think I ever saw Nakayama Masatoshi-sensei or Kanazawa Hirokazu-sensei in anything else but gi with a black belt. I don't know what Funakoshi himself wrote about belts and I would need to look it up, but I have no access to his major texts at this moment. Perhaps a karate scholar with immediate access to Funakoshi's original texts can address that part of your question more satisfactorily.


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by DougNZ on Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:15 pm

    Twice I have written a long reply questioning you assertions. Twice the machine has eaten my post. Evil or Very Mad

    Simply this: kohaku koi are described as being white with red markings. They generally have white noses and tails. Following your argument, one would expect a red fish with white markings, and red nose and tail. I therefore do not believe from Kano's introduction of kohaku obi that one can say with certainty that it was to have red ends. Kawaishi, a native Japanese speaker, obviously did not interpret 'kohaku' as requiring red ends, either.

    As for karate having white ends, this http://www.chitoryu.com/Ranks.htm : 'Whether the white/red or white/black sectioned belts begin at the tip of the belt with red or black and move to white or begin with white and move to red or black is inconsequential. This configuration is more a matter of how the belt was manufactured as opposed to any significance of this configuration. There may very well be an organization who use these types of belts as an identifier, but when this same question was put to Mr. Nakasone of the Sureido Martial Arts Company in Okinawa by Sensei Doug Perry a senior student of Master Shugero Nakazato of Kobayashi-ryu as to whether there was any difference in the relation to the tips starting as white or red/black, his comment was: "It is more a matter of what fabric we have more of when we decide to manufacture the belts as opposed to doing it on purpose."' I believe this is the company that made your 'karate' belt.

    My suggestion, in the absence of a clear and specific 'rule', is that the red-ended kohaku belt is a judo convention stemming from the purchase of such belts from the Kodokan, where the manufacturers, for whatever reason, chose to make a belt with red ends.

    Sorry this is not more eloquently put; rewriting posts is very tedious late at night.

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by genetic judoka on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:20 am

    I've also seen them with one red end and one white end. on judoka. though this may have been a case of a belt that was too large being trimmed to fit.stranger things have happened. I find it's easier to worry less about what a belt looks like and more about what their judo looks like.


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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by DougNZ on Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:32 am

    genetic judoka wrote:I find it's easier to worry less about what a belt looks like and more about what their judo looks like.

    You are, of course, quite right. We have a custom in our organisation of tossing a belt to the new recipient. It is to remind us that it is, after all, just a belt.

    However, it feeds my OCD to know the whys and wherefors, if there are whys and wherefors to be known. Too much knowledge is lost because people are too busy to retain it. I also enjoy finding the substance in legend and rumour.

    Jonesy

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:12 am

    Some thoughts on red/white vs white/red here: http://www.chitoryu.com/Ranks.htm

    Also, http://avengersdantai.net/Obi&Gi.htm


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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by DougNZ on Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:03 pm

    Jonesy wrote:Some thoughts on red/white vs white/red here: http://www.chitoryu.com/Ranks.htm

    Also, http://avengersdantai.net/Obi&Gi.htm

    Interesting second article, thanks, Jonesy. I wonder how universal the Avenger's belt system is within karate. Some of their information seems contradictory, taken the site over. I also become wary when people talk about shogo, dani and other titles in the same breath.

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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:30 pm

    DougNZ wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:Some thoughts on red/white vs white/red here: http://www.chitoryu.com/Ranks.htm

    Also, http://avengersdantai.net/Obi&Gi.htm

    Interesting second article, thanks, Jonesy. I wonder how universal the Avenger's belt system is within karate. Some of their information seems contradictory, taken the site over. I also become wary when people talk about shogo, dani and other titles in the same breath.

    There are several errors in those texts. For example, in the second text it reads: "Jigoro Kano chose to recognize sixth, seventh, and eighth degree black belts with a special obi made of alternating red and white panels (kohaku obi)."

    This is not true. The kohaku belt as introduced by Kanô Jigorô actually extended from 6th to 9th dan, not 8th dan. The red belt was designated for 10th, 11th and higher dan-ranks. Only later under Nangô Jirô this was changed when after Kanô's death the Kôdôkan limited the highest dan-rank to 10, now that Kanô had never awarded any rank higher than 10th.

    The references to Genpei and Genji etc. may be somewhat confusing to people hence some clarification. The Genpei war, origin of the colors red vs. white took place between 1180-1185 between the Minamoto and Taira clans. 'Minamoto' is the kun pronunciation of the kanji 源, but its on pronunciation is actually gen, whereas Taira is the kun pronunciation of 平 while its on pronunciation is 平, hence why the combination of the two names 'Minamoto' and 'Taira' can be pronounced as 'Gen + hei' or 'Genpei'.

    The Genpei war was a critical and significant event in the history of Japanes budô. Although it would take another 350 years before the first jûjutsu schools (inter alia Takanouchi-ryû in 1532) would be established, it is the time when the Japanese katana would reach its perfection. Before the Kamakura period (1185-1333) the shape of the swords is not standardized. There are few swords left from the Heian period (794-1185) and although some late Heian swords are already katana most are not and not significantly different from swords in other countries. The Genpei war is also critical as the bedrock of bushidô despite claims from some that bushidô would be some kind of modern invention. When the foundations of a Japanese moral war code started to form themselves it was not under the name bushidô, but under the name kyûba-no-michi or the Way of bow and arrow. At that time it was not a fully developed moral code as it lacked the infusion of well-described philosophical bedrock, nor was it a generally accepted or expected way of behavior. Further development and changes of name into first shidô and later bushidô would extend over centuries. Nevertheless, the event is critical in Japan's military history and together with the other major war 400 years later (Battle of Sekigahara in 1600 resulting in the final unification of Japan), represents the most significant historic Japanese military event before its involvement in the 1904-1905 Great Japanese Russian War and World War II.

    It is the winning Minamoto clan that gave rise to the creation of the shôgun figure, which did not previously exist. This new position was established in Kamakura rather than in Kyôto, hence the start of a new era called "Kamakura period", inter alia characterized by the creation of a separate military government (named bakufu) in addition to the ruling emperor. However, despite the win, the rivalry between Minamoto and Taira which continued to exist due to family ties, hence why their colors red vs. white are so impactful in the Japanese understanding of 'competing interests' between two parties.

    I wanted to add the brief introduction above not certain how familiar the average person is with this, and to contextualized the background against which the introduction of the concept 'kohaku' needs to be understood.


    _________________


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    Re: Red belt with white squares

    Post by Sponsored content Today at 9:34 pm


      Current date/time is Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:34 pm