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    F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

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    Cichorei Kano

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    F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:25 pm




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    techman

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by techman on Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:37 pm

    In an effort to make it more interesting for spectators? They have managed to achieve the opposite!!
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    Heisenberg

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by Heisenberg on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:25 am

    techman wrote:In an effort to make it more interesting for spectators? They have managed to achieve the opposite!!
    At the very least they have made tournament judo less interesting to practitioners. I'll be interested to see if the local tournies pick up these new rules.


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    judoratt

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by judoratt on Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:19 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    Nice job on video CK great choice of Music. Razz
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    judoratt

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by judoratt on Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:36 pm

    Heisenberg wrote:
    techman wrote:In an effort to make it more interesting for spectators? They have managed to achieve the opposite!!
    At the very least they have made tournament judo less interesting to practitioners. I'll be interested to see if the local tournies pick up these new rules.

    We have had three local tournaments with the new rules, the first two events we gave warnings for the first leg grabs. This last weekend was our first local event with the full rules no warnings along with care systems it went off almost flawless.

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    Heisenberg

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by Heisenberg on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:36 am

    judoratt,
    how about the more nitpicky rules about gripfighting and gripbreaking? Or judges being moved out of the corners and to the tables?

    The only new rule I do 'like' is the shime/kansetsu continuing outside the contest area if it was started inside.


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    judoratt

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by judoratt on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:04 am

    Heisenberg wrote:judoratt,
    how about the more nitpicky rules about gripfighting and gripbreaking? Or judges being moved out of the corners and to the tables?

    The only new rule I do 'like' is the shime/kansetsu continuing outside the contest area if it was started inside.

    We haven't moved the referees of the mat yet. We may do that in the future for some senior matches but I don't see that happening locally for a while. I never liked the 2 handed lapel grip breaking it was just too powerful, and rarely lead to offensive attacks.
    I really like the upgrading of ippon ,and no longer having flags for decisions. I don't like all of the rule changes but it really doesn't matter what I think, this is what's happening and we are dealing with it. it's going to take some time and it can really get ugly if the referees and coaches aren't on the same page. Locally the coaches work together with the referees on the implementation of the rules.


    Last edited by judoratt on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by Guest on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:17 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    This is one of the more absurd videos I have seen on YouTube that criticizes the IJF rules on grabbing legs. I especially love the "This is s---" at 1:32 of the video which shows a random collection of video clips put together that shows very little action. Perhaps in every contest after 1:32 there was a beautiful ippon but we never know because the video of the matches were butchered. Anecdotally I would say that prior to the 2010 rule changes for every "leg grab" that resulted in an ippon there would be 20 matches I'd watch where I'd see people trying to leg pick each other for five minutes, trying only for a koka or yuko, and trying to get the other guy to have shido called on him. I suspect CK might be trolling here a bit ( Wink ) and foolishly I have reacted but since I've written this much I'm not about to delete it all. Well played, CK.....well played.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by genetic judoka on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:36 am

    Dave R. wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    This is one of the more absurd videos I have seen on YouTube that criticizes the IJF rules on grabbing legs. I especially love the "This is s---" at 1:32 of the video which shows a random collection of video clips put together that shows very little action. Perhaps in every contest after 1:32 there was a beautiful ippon but we never know because the video of the matches were butchered. Anecdotally I would say that prior to the 2010 rule changes for every "leg grab" that resulted in an ippon there would be 20 matches I'd watch where I'd see people trying to leg pick each other for five minutes, trying only for a koka or yuko, and trying to get the other guy to have shido called on him. I suspect CK might be trolling here a bit ( Wink ) and foolishly I have reacted but since I've written this much I'm not about to delete it all. Well played, CK.....well played.
    maybe april fools day starts early over there.

    also note that many of the "this is shit" clips came from the same tournaments the supposed 'good judo' clips came from (namely beijing)


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    finarashi

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by finarashi on Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:21 am

    genetic judoka wrote:
    maybe april fools day starts early over there.

    also note that many of the "this is shit" clips came from the same tournaments the supposed 'good judo' clips came from (namely beijing)
    Makes you think, doesn't it!


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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by NYCNewbie on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:22 am

    As a (relatively) tall, thin guy, I never, ever went for leg picks but always got caught with 'em. Plus, I have this "leave the leg dangling out there"-type of Judo and as such would regularly get in trouble via leg grabs.

    And you know what? I despise the prohibition on leg grabs. I deserved every leg pick I got. I can't believe they'd do away with them!

    The main thing is: they're natural. They happen organically in fights. Judo is a fight. Not a fistfight, but a grappling fight- and grappling fights mean grappling, which means grabbing legs. Period.

    The whole thing makes me sad.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:03 am

    NYCNewbie wrote:As a (relatively) tall, thin guy, I never, ever went for leg picks but always got caught with 'em. Plus, I have this "leave the leg dangling out there"-type of Judo and as such would regularly get in trouble via leg grabs.

    And you know what? I despise the prohibition on leg grabs. I deserved every leg pick I got. I can't believe they'd do away with them!

    The main thing is: they're natural. They happen organically in fights. Judo is a fight. Not a fistfight, but a grappling fight- and grappling fights mean grappling, which means grabbing legs. Period.

    The whole thing makes me sad.

    Styles in judo seem to evolve mainly due to influences from other martial arts. Grabbing the legs used to be very rare. I recall the time that morote-gari was a rare technique outside of the gokyô that you never saw in shiai. Between 1970-1976 a number of Soviet Russians such as Novikov and Chochosvili brought ura-nage into competitive judo. These athletes came from sambo, and before that, even ura-nage was a rare technique in competition. Judo before that was mostly gokyo techniques. Van De Walle and Khabarelli then further popularized techniques that required considerable lifting force and that were mainly used as techniques against far more technically versed Japanese players. Since the late 1970s judo has more and more shown an evolution where techniques that can be learnt quickly with minimal tsukuri have become popular, techniques where the success can be quickly improved due to power training. Better knowledge of fitness and power training techniques add to potential success of players. Technical level of elite players (in general, not all) is suffering meanwhile. Even at national level you see the difference. Many players can no longer even perform certain basic techniques but instead of focusing on technical training all they do is fight, fight, fight and lift, lift, lift with the sole goal being to get get some body part of the opponent other than his feet touch the tatami irrespective of how..


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total


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    micahpharris

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by micahpharris on Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:06 am

    As a noob, it makes little sense to me that competition rules would outlaw a throw that is present in the gokyu no waza and in the nage no kata.


    Last edited by micahpharris on Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:06 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : bad grammar)
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    finarashi

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by finarashi on Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:12 am

    Agree with CK above.

    One thing I'm wondering is how much of this is caused by modern Judogi. Before Judogi was thinner and much much easier to grab. Judo is something where opponents grab each others garments. Now the garments have been made so that strangling with gi, gripping the sleeves and gripping the front are very very problematic.

    Is attacking legs the caused by inability to grip and do more traditional throws?


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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by wdax on Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:09 am

    finarashi wrote:Is attacking legs the caused by inability to grip and do more traditional throws?
    I think so! The inability to grip has two reasons. First is the construction of judogi, what is under the IJF-licence better, because the lapels have to be softer. The second thing is the technique of grip-breaking. Almost every player can easily break a lapel- or a sleeve-grip. So the natural reaction was to attack the legs, when it is not possible to grip.

    When the direct leg attacks were partially banned, the first reaction was to work more on grip-fighting. The natural reaction was banning two-hand-gripbreaking.... This will lead to more neck-grip and more cross grip. Make a guess, what will be banned next ;-)
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    Fritz

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by Fritz on Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:43 am

    Maybe we should do two patches at each gi, one for left hand, one for right hand,
    then before hajime, the judoists take grip, the one who lost the grip first loses the fight.
    And if we require, that every participant needs four gis (blue, not blue, both for right and left handed
    opponents) then the gi selling industry is happy too...


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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by still learning on Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:50 am

    [quote="wdax"]
    finarashi wrote:
    ... This will lead to more neck-grip and more cross grip. Make a guess, what will be banned next ;-)

    This point has partly been addressed in the new rules already, under negative judo.

    If you have a dominant grip such as neck grip and don't attack with it (almost immediately) you can be penalised; as it is deemed negative not to use such a strong grip when you have it. In theory this should result in more attacking judo, but as I've been unable to train for four months due to injury I've been unable to try and put into action.

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    rjohnston411

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by rjohnston411 on Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:06 pm

    As a newbie, I just don't see the point in competing under IJF rules tournaments.
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    cuivien

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by cuivien on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:54 pm

    rjohnston411 wrote:As a newbie, I just don't see the point in competing under IJF rules tournaments.

    If you have a club that teaches jûdô, not "IJF jacket wrestling" (I generalize of course), then indeed; I too struggle to see the point in partaking in events limited by the IJF rules. That's just me though, and I understand those who disagree tongue


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    judoratt

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by judoratt on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:12 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:As a newbie, I just don't see the point in competing under IJF rules tournaments.

    AS a oldbie we are working under the new rules at 100% of our local and regional events. As soon as the new rules came out in writing we started working with the rules. As coach that works with players at all levels it is my job to be on top of the rules, and at my dojo it would be negligent of me not to be up on the new rules for our competitors. There are many ill prepared coaches and players just because they don't put in the effort to learn the new rules for their players.

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by medo on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:41 am

    judoratt wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:As a newbie, I just don't see the point in competing under IJF rules tournaments.

    AS a oldbie we are working under the new rules at 100% of our local and regional events. As soon as the new rules came out in writing we started working with the rules. As coach that works with players at all levels it is my job to be on top of the rules, and at my dojo it would be negligent of me not to be up on the new rules for our competitors. There are many ill prepared coaches and players just because they don't put in the effort to learn the new rules for their players.

    Whenever there are rule changes unless you are an independent club, you will have to eventually follow the new rules. Even if you don't compete at competitions one presumes you would need to compete externally for your grade under the new rules.
    I am old enough to remember the stepping out of the area rule, even as a kyu grade we trained on how to get out of the corner, how to make it look like the guy pushed us out.. Waist of time when you think about it, all them hours training this, would have been better learning how to throw as to how not to get trapped in the corner.
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    BillC

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by BillC on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:14 am

    cuivien wrote:If you have a club that teaches jûdô, not "IJF jacket wrestling" (I generalize of course), then indeed; I too struggle to see the point in partaking in events limited by the IJF rules. That's just me though, and I understand those who disagree tongue

    judoratt wrote: AS a oldbie we are working under the new rules at 100% of our local and regional events. As soon as the new rules came out in writing we started working with the rules. As coach that works with players at all levels it is my job to be on top of the rules, and at my dojo it would be negligent of me not to be up on the new rules for our competitors. There are many ill prepared coaches and players just because they don't put in the effort to learn the new rules for their players.

    At least a couple comments.

    - Cuivien, for me personally I am going to have to think long and hard about doing any more competition. Now, no one is going to miss a 55 year old silver league player who was a .500 player at his best ... maybe tournament organizers won't even miss my entry fee. Point is that I won't be missing that entry fee either. It is quite certain that I will either grab a leg as a counter, or break grip two-on-one. No practical way to untrain that ... and why should I? Judo's not "what the IJF says it is" but "that which was created by Jigoro Kano" ... and Kano shihan assembled much, much more than was promoted even under the old rules. I can't forget what was drilled into my neurons at an early age and this latest narrowing overtopped my ability to accept and move on. Especially in the internet age where the reasons for f*****g up judo are so transparent.

    - BM, I get your point and think you are probably correct in the narrow sense. But my particular opinion is that judo has been narrowed too much as it is. Don't use the leg to flip a flopper or a flinger? Give me a break!

    - I like elements of a talk NBK gave last weekend, though not intended as commentary on the rule changes they seemed relevant and timely. He noted from his historical research that the reason not to adopt a bent over posture was to avoid getting a knee to the face; the reason for the "standard judo grip" a safe and easy starting point for children.

    - The fantasy is an organization of significant size and resources, one that understands and respects all of judo, who will come along and sanction a simple, reduced rule set focused on the average judoka. When pigs fly I guess.

    - And Sheldon ... I still can't find jita kyoei and seiryoku zenyo anywhere on the IJF web site ... much less "front and center" on the home page where it belongs permanently. What other proof does one need that the IJF is not promoting judo?
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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by finarashi on Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:35 pm

    BillC wrote:At least a couple comments.

    - Cuivien, for me personally I am going to have to think long and hard about doing any more competition. Now, no one is going to miss a 55 year old silver league player who was a .500 player at his best ... maybe tournament organizers won't even miss my entry fee. Point is that I won't be missing that entry fee either. It is quite certain that I will either grab a leg as a counter, or break grip two-on-one. No practical way to untrain that ... and why should I? Judo's not "what the IJF says it is" but "that which was created by Jigoro Kano" ... and Kano shihan assembled much, much more than was promoted even under the old rules. I can't forget what was drilled into my neurons at an early age and this latest narrowing overtopped my ability to accept and move on. Especially in the internet age where the reasons for f*****g up judo are so transparent.

    Funnily enough I can't recall a single instance in my club's training in the 1970s and 1980s where one was supposed to learn morote-gari, leg grab for counter or breaking the grip.

    Can somebody find an old judo video, book or other resource where there is demonstration of grip breaking. When did grip breaking become part of Judo?


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    BillC

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by BillC on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:05 pm

    finarashi wrote:
    Funnily enough I can't recall a single instance in my club's training in the 1970s and 1980s where one was supposed to learn morote-gari, leg grab for counter or breaking the grip.

    Can somebody find an old judo video, book or other resource where there is demonstration of grip breaking. When did grip breaking become part of Judo?

    Shirley, you jest.

    Well ... funnily I can. I suppose I could find an old promotion test that included morotegari ... but take my word for it ... it's in the gokyunowaza. I could write in detail about what my very conservative, Japanese and Korean trained ... as in trained in Japan and Korea ... had us work on especially for kaeshiwaza but that would be boring. Short version ... hands below the waist.

    Book or video on grip breaking ... my library is not as old as some people's are plus I am either lazy or short on time to look stuff up... how about conservative collections like "Best Judo" (look around page 90 for the first example I found in about 30 seconds) which happens to be on the shelf in front of me along side avant garde works like "Fighting Judo." Though I do happen to have a 1944 printing of a 1936 book titled "Judo" which spends a great deal of time on grip breaking.

    What's the third move in the junokata? The first movements of the idori and tachiai in the kimenokata ... among others? The entire kansetsuwaza set of the katamenokata? The first seven movements of that newbie collection, the goshinjutsu? I am not sure, but I think there are YouTube videos of these if you are not familiar.

    My question for you, when did grip breaking NOT become part of judo? It has been part of judo since before there was judo my friend. A grip is an attack. Breaking grips is basic budo.
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    cuivien

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    Re: F*** the new rules, we want back the old rules !!

    Post by cuivien on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:44 pm

    BillC wrote:

    At least a couple comments.

    - Cuivien, for me personally I am going to have to think long and hard about doing any more competition. Now, no one is going to miss a 55 year old silver league player who was a .500 player at his best ... maybe tournament organizers won't even miss my entry fee. Point is that I won't be missing that entry fee either. It is quite certain that I will either grab a leg as a counter, or break grip two-on-one. No practical way to untrain that ... and why should I? Judo's not "what the IJF says it is" but "that which was created by Jigoro Kano" ... and Kano shihan assembled much, much more than was promoted even under the old rules. I can't forget what was drilled into my neurons at an early age and this latest narrowing overtopped my ability to accept and move on. Especially in the internet age where the reasons for f*****g up judo are so transparent.

    - I like elements of a talk NBK gave last weekend, though not intended as commentary on the rule changes they seemed relevant and timely. He noted from his historical research that the reason not to adopt a bent over posture was to avoid getting a knee to the face; the reason for the "standard judo grip" a safe and easy starting point for children.

    - And Sheldon ... I still can't find jita kyoei and seiryoku zenyo anywhere on the IJF web site ... much less "front and center" on the home page where it belongs permanently. What other proof does one need that the IJF is not promoting judo?

    replying to a bit of different stuff, the part directed (semi) at me first Smile

    yeah, I get what you're saying. I tell you; even though I now know with every inch of my body that it's bad jûdô, it's soooooooo hard trying to not forearm my students in the groin when doing te-guruma as a counter to their failed uchi-mata. That was one of the first counters sensei taught me 10yrs ago Neutral Can't imagine what it's like trying to suppress stuff that's been ingrained from even further back..

    Also, "bent over posture = potential knee to the face" is what I teach. Of course, we don't do that (I tend to kick people in their a§§ if I see it is sticking out when people do randori Cool ), but besides the obvious risks it makes for less positive (i.e. "positively attacking") jûdô...

    To the comment for Sheldon: +1


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