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    Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

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    gabe_tash

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    Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by gabe_tash on Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:23 am

    (just gonna copy/paste this from old forum) Hello my friends, I have a bit of a problem. In shiai I have won many times by newaza strangle or armlock (just saying), and I have begun to feel like a bit of a specialist. The problem is that for me this skill set does not particularly transfer well into newaza randori in practice when you start from knees/backs. I can easily lose to shodans and even some sankyus when starting from knees in a more bjj style progression, usually due to the wild scrambles that occur. This would not be a huge problem, as at least I'm winning competition; however I feel like my judo is not well rounded, and all of my newaza is strictly against unsuspecting opponents who turtle up. So my question is if anyone else can relate, or maybe you are opposite of me, where your newaza doesn't transfer to shiai? Does anyone else feel as if it's two different styles of newaza? and practicing one may not benefit the other. How do you find an equilibrium between the focuses?
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:31 pm

    gabe_tash wrote:(just gonna copy/paste this from old forum) Hello my friends, I have a bit of a problem. In shiai I have won many times by newaza strangle or armlock (just saying), and I have begun to feel like a bit of a specialist. The problem is that for me this skill set does not particularly transfer well into newaza randori in practice when you start from knees/backs. I can easily lose to shodans and even some sankyus when starting from knees in a more bjj style progression, usually due to the wild scrambles that occur. This would not be a huge problem, as at least I'm winning competition; however I feel like my judo is not well rounded, and all of my newaza is strictly against unsuspecting opponents who turtle up. So my question is if anyone else can relate, or maybe you are opposite of me, where your newaza doesn't transfer to shiai? Does anyone else feel as if it's two different styles of newaza? and practicing one may not benefit the other. How do you find an equilibrium between the focuses?

    Two points I would like to raise.

    1. Sometimes people confuse newaza and katame-waza. The two are not the same. Katame-waza (such as strangulations, armbars and pins) are only part of newaza. So yes, you could be quite good at katame-waza and still lose the majority of matches if the rest of your newaza sucks.

    2. It is possible to be an excellent technician and lose most jûdô matches, either tachi-waza or newaza. To be successful in jûdô shiai requires a lot more than just excellent technique. For example, no matter how superb your technique, if you keep competing you will eventually start losing more and more matches due to your advancing age. Thus getting gassed or even having poor endurance at younger age can cost you matches. Lack of physical strength, lack of explosive force, can make you lose matches; so will poor strategic insight. Other factors that regularly cause excellent technicians to lose matches are lack in fighting spirit and lack in aggression. I don't think it is so much like you say "different styles" although one could --I guess-- consider more vs. less aggression as "different styles". Nevertheless, I mention in the previous lines several options you might wish to consider regarding your newaza skills. These problems even apply at the highest elite level. I have known jûdôka who were unbeatable during training, yet who never won a major title.

    It happens at any level. The first student I took under my wing, was when I was a brown belt. I worked with him a lot on a one-on-one basis, and he eventually obtained 3rd or 2nd kyû, I can't remember, cause he has long left jûdô and I haven't seen him in decades. Even at kyû level he became and outstanding technician; everyone would praise him for that. He also started participating in competition when he was a 3rd kyû. During his competition experience he scored a couple of kôka, but I have never known him to win a single second. That was also the major reason he quit jûdô after some time. I found out from my teacher at the time that two senior members of our club who had then long left the club and who were successful teachers elsewhere (one is now an 8th dan) used to work out together. Both were excellent technician, one mostly tachi-waza, the other mostly newaza. The one guy (now 8th dan) was multiple times national champion, the other apart from a couple of local tournaments never even reached a podium on major national tournaments. Same case; did not have the aggression, did not have that fighting spirit, but during training he wrapped up the entire national team in newaza in those days. So, there you go ...


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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by nomoremondays on Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:36 pm

    gabe_tash wrote:(just gonna copy/paste this from old forum) Hello my friends, I have a bit of a problem. In shiai I have won many times by newaza strangle or armlock (just saying), and I have begun to feel like a bit of a specialist. The problem is that for me this skill set does not particularly transfer well into newaza randori in practice when you start from knees/backs. I can easily lose to shodans and even some sankyus when starting from knees in a more bjj style progression, usually due to the wild scrambles that occur. This would not be a huge problem, as at least I'm winning competition; however I feel like my judo is not well rounded, and all of my newaza is strictly against unsuspecting opponents who turtle up. So my question is if anyone else can relate, or maybe you are opposite of me, where your newaza doesn't transfer to shiai? Does anyone else feel as if it's two different styles of newaza? and practicing one may not benefit the other. How do you find an equilibrium between the focuses?

    I understand what you are saying. I don't know if its two 'different styles' but it is definitely two different aspects. Very loosely speaking, I think its because generally newaza randori as practiced in clubs is basically a case of 'both on the ground almost all the time' whereas in shiai it is usually a case of 'one on his feet, the other on the ground'. Of course, there can be carry over but usually you are better at the aspect you train more.
    The question of equilibrium can be addressed by doing newaza randori in different scenarios : you in turtle/uke on feet, you on feet/uke in turtle, uke with two legs around your one on bottom, you on bottom with both legs around one of uke, uke on his back/you on your feet approaching etc etc.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by Wandering WB on Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:55 pm

    CK has an interesting story to tell while answering a beginner's question as usual.

    This is what I wrote when I first saw this on judoforum.com

    Go to the new forum judo.forumsmotion.com and re-post your question there, I, among others, will gladly answer it.
    In short to imrpove you need two takedowns from the knees, two escapes from bjj sidemount, two escapes from kuzure kesa gatame, two escapes from north south, combination of bridge and roll and elbow escape, cross-collar-armbar-triangle sequence from guard and armdrag to the bow and arrow from the back. If you want an explanation, go to judo.forumsmotion.com
    The positional hierarchy in BJJ exists for two, no three reasons. The first reason is to make tournament fighting more spectator friendly, since the organizer's think that by having a winner declared because of three advantage points in a fight that nobody won they are satisfying the blood thirsty crowd. The second reason is to convince people that by having their guard passed or being under sidemount (osaekomi) they are losing. The mount and backmount are two of the most dominant positions on the ground, but you don't need a positional hierarchy or the theory of positional dominance to tell you this. The third reason is to permit classification, which enables us to talk about our training.

    The thing is that jiujitsu is usually taught wrong. It's taught from the attacker's viewpoint, with the attacker starting on top and applying an armlock or a choke. This was not the jiujitsu of Helio Gracie and that's not what a new student will spend most of his time doing (ahem... you'll get practiced on rather than with and rolled into a pretzel when you start, as everybody on this forum has been when they started judo). His jiujitsu was about defending himself, staying safe and not losing. Unfortunately, most people seek to imitate not Helio (rest in peace...) but either the man who beat him, judo champion Masahiko Kimura or even Helio's son, Rickson Gracie. Masahiko Kimura was an outstanding physical specimen (you probably aren't) and constantly attacked with his famous osotogari, which had many threads dedicated to it on judoforum. He dedicated his life to judo (you probably didn't) and I think the tatami saw more of him then his wife's bed. Rickson, undefeated in MMA, is physically reminiscent of Arnold Schwarzenneger, Vitor Belfort, Andre Galvao, although I don't think they are related. He was trained by jiujitsu's best, Rolls Gracie (a lightweight, an open guard specialist with a fondness for mounting people btw), and like many of his family had dedicated his whole life to the art (you probably didn't). He has an agressive guard passing style and his takedowns are uncompromising - double underhooks! These were not the people I sought to imitate when I started jiujitsu. I wanted a to be able to overcome an agressive attacker with technique and I do not intend to dedicate my life to just martial arts.

    So how to learn defense and escapes when this is not what the class time is focused on? By studying over the Internet and training outside the gym. The theory of positional dominance states that to win one has to pass the guard to sidemount, move to mount, attempt to cross collar choke or armbar, and if the opponent turns his back, take it and apply an RNC/hadaka jime. That's the simplest and most direct and ruthless approach to newaza ever and it is what the Gracies are trained in since childhood. What they usually don't tell you soon enough is that this strategy can be sabotaged at every step. At every step of that process from when they try to pass your guard to get to that cross-collar choke, you can fight.

    Recently, someone who showed the efficiency of this approach was Ryron Gracie when he fought Andre Galvao and made the invincible champion powerless. His post-fight commentary is quite informative as well.

    Thanks to the positional classification, you know the thinking of the person on top. You know the positions he will go through: n variations of sidemount, n variations of kneemount, n variations of mount, n variations of backmount and of course, north south. You need to be able to escape these basic positions at will and understand defensive posture on your back. At every level of jiujitsu, you need to know a few more escapes or how to better combine escapes, from these basic positions.

    Once you understand defense and escapes, you realize that the margin between defense and offense is paper-thin, since once you escape, reverse the position you can counter-attack! That's where it all comes full circle. You don't need to worry whether Rickson Gracie or Masahiko Kimura know how to use defensive tactics or techniques - of course they do (did). Like everyone else, they started from the beginning.

    Also, winning in competition usually implied you have to smash your training partners when you prepare for it by going at competition intensity in class - these are the people you train with, and although I have done this, it is not a desirable step to take at all.

    I attempted to point out which techniques you need, imo, to improve your skill.

    You may of course disregard this post completely since it is written by someone who freely admits to wearing a white belt to every class as per my nick.

    hedgehogey

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by hedgehogey on Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:59 pm


    The thing is that jiujitsu is usually taught wrong. It's taught from the attacker's viewpoint, with the attacker starting on top and applying an armlock or a choke


    I knew you didn't do jiujitsu!

    hedgehogey

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by hedgehogey on Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:01 pm

    OP, i'm gonna make a wild guess: you're encountering far more guardwork in randori, where you're forced to try to attack on the ground, than you do in competition, where you're free to stall out during newaza. Either your guard needs work or your guard passing does.

    Also you might be playing the knee wrestling game. Don't do that if you are.

    medo

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by medo on Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:15 pm

    Wandering WB wrote:CK has an interesting story to tell while answering a beginner's question as usual.

    This is what I wrote when I first saw this on judoforum.com

    Go to the new forum judo.forumsmotion.com and re-post your question there, I, among others, will gladly answer it.
    In short to imrpove you need two takedowns from the knees, two escapes from bjj sidemount, two escapes from kuzure kesa gatame, two escapes from north south, combination of bridge and roll and elbow escape, cross-collar-armbar-triangle sequence from guard and armdrag to the bow and arrow from the back. If you want an explanation, go to judo.forumsmotion.com
    The positional hierarchy in BJJ exists for two, no three reasons. The first reason is to make tournament fighting more spectator friendly, since the organizer's think that by having a winner declared because of three advantage points in a fight that nobody won they are satisfying the blood thirsty crowd. The second reason is to convince people that by having their guard passed or being under sidemount (osaekomi) they are losing. The mount and backmount are two of the most dominant positions on the ground, but you don't need a positional hierarchy or the theory of positional dominance to tell you this. The third reason is to permit classification, which enables us to talk about our training.

    The thing is that jiujitsu is usually taught wrong. It's taught from the attacker's viewpoint, with the attacker starting on top and applying an armlock or a choke. This was not the jiujitsu of Helio Gracie and that's not what a new student will spend most of his time doing (ahem... you'll get practiced on rather than with and rolled into a pretzel when you start, as everybody on this forum has been when they started judo). His jiujitsu was about defending himself, staying safe and not losing. Unfortunately, most people seek to imitate not Helio (rest in peace...) but either the man who beat him, judo champion Masahiko Kimura or even Helio's son, Rickson Gracie. Masahiko Kimura was an outstanding physical specimen (you probably aren't) and constantly attacked with his famous osotogari, which had many threads dedicated to it on judoforum. He dedicated his life to judo (you probably didn't) and I think the tatami saw more of him then his wife's bed. Rickson, undefeated in MMA, is physically reminiscent of Arnold Schwarzenneger, Vitor Belfort, Andre Galvao, although I don't think they are related. He was trained by jiujitsu's best, Rolls Gracie (a lightweight, an open guard specialist with a fondness for mounting people btw), and like many of his family had dedicated his whole life to the art (you probably didn't). He has an agressive guard passing style and his takedowns are uncompromising - double underhooks! These were not the people I sought to imitate when I started jiujitsu. I wanted a to be able to overcome an agressive attacker with technique and I do not intend to dedicate my life to just martial arts.

    So how to learn defense and escapes when this is not what the class time is focused on? By studying over the Internet and training outside the gym. The theory of positional dominance states that to win one has to pass the guard to sidemount, move to mount, attempt to cross collar choke or armbar, and if the opponent turns his back, take it and apply an RNC/hadaka jime. That's the simplest and most direct and ruthless approach to newaza ever and it is what the Gracies are trained in since childhood. What they usually don't tell you soon enough is that this strategy can be sabotaged at every step. At every step of that process from when they try to pass your guard to get to that cross-collar choke, you can fight.

    Recently, someone who showed the efficiency of this approach was Ryron Gracie when he fought Andre Galvao and made the invincible champion powerless. His post-fight commentary is quite informative as well.

    Thanks to the positional classification, you know the thinking of the person on top. You know the positions he will go through: n variations of sidemount, n variations of kneemount, n variations of mount, n variations of backmount and of course, north south. You need to be able to escape these basic positions at will and understand defensive posture on your back. At every level of jiujitsu, you need to know a few more escapes or how to better combine escapes, from these basic positions.

    Once you understand defense and escapes, you realize that the margin between defense and offense is paper-thin, since once you escape, reverse the position you can counter-attack! That's where it all comes full circle. You don't need to worry whether Rickson Gracie or Masahiko Kimura know how to use defensive tactics or techniques - of course they do (did). Like everyone else, they started from the beginning.

    Also, winning in competition usually implied you have to smash your training partners when you prepare for it by going at competition intensity in class - these are the people you train with, and although I have done this, it is not a desirable step to take at all.

    I attempted to point out which techniques you need, imo, to improve your skill.

    You may of course disregard this post completely since it is written by someone who freely admits to wearing a white belt to every class as per my nick.
    Its a good read
    You may of course disregard this post completely since it is written by someone who freely admits to wearing a white belt to every class as per my nick.
    That's the answer Very Happy

    gabe_tash

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by gabe_tash on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:25 pm

    All great, informative responses that will help tremendously. Just to add, I did a month of BJJ just to test myself and I could for the most part hang with the blue and purple belts in newaza. I did however struggle when doing my bottom game which was weird because in judo newaza I'm a bottom guard player (more shime/kansetsuwaza chances), and in bjj class they told me I had a great top game, also I noticed that I struggled in dealing with their legs before a guard is established whether in judo or bjj top or bottom. It has to do with knowledge/reasoning of the technique i.m.o. BJJers develop a systematic approach to newaza much like we do with tachiwaza. Whereas I as a judoka just blindly drill techniques with no understanding of why I do certain aspects. For example, in uchikomi us judoka know why our hikite arm goes up in a front throw (for kuzushi, putting them on their toes) whereas some BJJ person may have a clean uchimata but have no idea why his arms lift up when throwing. Conversely I do that on the ground, I don't know the biomechanics of actual newaza, I just know how to get a juji from certain positions and other scenario-based moves. This is somewhat related to what ck said. So my question is how does one learn those precise biomechanics of newaza? I know the answer is putting in mat time, but maybe there's a more specific answer.

    hedgehogey

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by hedgehogey on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:35 pm

    I think you might have evaluated your BJJ experience wrong. I find it a rare shodan who can hang with a mid level blue when push comes to shove.

    BJJ randori is usually done at a more relaxed pace than judo randori, as you're expected to do it for longer. You're also expected to be able to play both top and bottom with, if not equal skill, at least good attention paid to both areas. If you have trouble working your bottom game, that might be a sign of what's wrong here.

    gabe_tash

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by gabe_tash on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:42 pm

    And interesting read Wandering. But I do think the positional hierarchy is ultimately beneficial for ground game knowledge. That makes sense that Helio's BJJ is not being taught today, but you could make the same argument with Kano's judo. Kano's judo is for when some giant drunk guy at a bar tries to football tackle you, not you and some European guy having a 10 minute kumikata match, but both scenarios are fun to watch and require skill i.m.o. Besides, the position hierarchy that you speak of becomes of even more importance nowadays as a lot of people have some idea of whats a good and bad place to be on the ground. Also that is why I believe judo has its success in MMA with Ronda, because her opponents don't understand that judo has its own positional hierarchy chart in kumikata/clinch much like bjj does on the ground.

    gabe_tash

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by gabe_tash on Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:23 pm

    hedgehogey wrote:I think you might have evaluated your BJJ experience wrong. I find it a rare shodan who can hang with a mid level blue when push comes to shove.

    BJJ randori is usually done at a more relaxed pace than judo randori, as you're expected to do it for longer. You're also expected to be able to play both top and bottom with, if not equal skill, at least good attention paid to both areas. If you have trouble working your bottom game, that might be a sign of what's wrong here.

    Really though? I respectfully disagree with the second sentence. I put emphasis on the word "hang", I was never tooling them, but that being said I could occasionally get a juji from mount or turtle. By no means was I better than even one of the purple belts, in fact I never caught one of the purple/brown belts in a submission (brown belts would just play with me). But I do believe I provided a definite challenge and workout to those that I went against. Also I'm not a shodan (maybe you didn't mean that?), but that doesn't matter. It was funny seing the comparison between judo and bjj ranks as in judo, shodan is merely a new chapter where in bjj a black belt has this "master" title all the sudden. But back on topic, what you said about pace is 100% true, when I did ground game I tried to match their pace so hard but they just had this slow persistence that was very challenging to mimic. It's not really a matter of having more stamina, but more so having more patience, and maybe that is my problem. For example, this one guy would get me in his guard, and immediately try for an arm drag (or whatever it's called), he would honestly spend a good 2-3 minutes hanging on, slowly creeping up my back. It was like a snake was slowly swallowing me and I couldn't do anything. So this may help with my problem, thanks. And as for my bottom game, once they got to halfguard, it was the beginning of the end for me haha, so yeah I gotta work on that.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by Wandering WB on Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:43 pm

    And interesting read Wandering. But I do think the positional hierarchy is ultimately beneficial for ground game knowledge. That makes sense that Helio's BJJ is not being taught today, but you could make the same argument with Kano's judo. Kano's judo is for when some giant drunk guy at a bar tries to football tackle you, not you and some European guy having a 10 minute kumikata match, but both scenarios are fun to watch and require skill i.m.o. Besides, the position hierarchy that you speak of becomes of even more importance nowadays as a lot of people have some idea of whats a good and bad place to be on the ground. Also that is why I believe judo has its success in MMA with Ronda, because her opponents don't understand that judo has its own positional hierarchy chart in kumikata/clinch much like bjj does on the ground.

    Go to either grapplearts.com or grapplersguide.com and follow these websites 24/7 for a couple of years. It will do wonders for your game.

    I am learning stand up now, both grappling and striking, Gi and No Gi, so having a ten minute kumikata with a European guy is never happening, unfortunately. However, I think my learning rate is pretty good due to previous experience and I will be able to keep up with the advanced guys in class in the coming months.

    Ronda has a clear strategy, a fight plan. It's not the end all be all, but it works. It's called clinch and hiptoss to submission. What it takes to stop that strategy is a female wrestler her own weight who knows more than two punches, does not turn to knees from under mount, can escape kesa gatame (I dare not ask for competent armbar defense, since Neil Adams is out there...), can use footwork to avoid the clinch, or if the clinch happens, does not just get thrown like a rag doll. Whatever Ronda's credentials in judo, they do not entitle her to throw her opponents the way she does, it's their own fault if they see it coming and don't counter. Oh well, I wouldn't fight her.
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    JudoStu

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by JudoStu on Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:48 pm

    hedgehogey wrote:Also you might be playing the knee wrestling game. Don't do that if you are.

    I don’t play the knee wrestling game but my opponents do. This means I have to pull guard everytime I do Newaza which is why I’m much better off my back. My top game sucks but what can I do other than ask my opponent to pull guard


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    gabe_tash

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by gabe_tash on Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:34 pm

    JudoStu wrote:
    hedgehogey wrote:Also you might be playing the knee wrestling game. Don't do that if you are.

    I don’t play the knee wrestling game but my opponents do. This means I have to pull guard everytime I do Newaza which is why I’m much better off my back. My top game sucks but what can I do other than ask my opponent to pull guard

    That's creepy how I would've said the same exact thing in my response. I hate when people try to do judo techniques from knees or just keep pushing you down. Wrestling from knees makes no sense, it's not practical for competition, self-defense or anything. When I see little kids grab head&arm and fall back straight to osaekomi, I fail to see the purpose. It usually only happens when against lesser experienced people but is still a pet peeve of mine. In bjj and with sankyu and above judoka, there is an unspoken agreement that one person is to go on his butt while the other stays on knees. Unless someone wants to try to grab a leg/or go to turtle which to me is fine because it's adding practicality. In my old club, we used to do newaza randori straight off of one person throwing an uke, and while I used to despise it and think it was unfair, now I see how much more practical that is.

    hedgehogey

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by hedgehogey on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:49 am

    JudoStu wrote:
    hedgehogey wrote:Also you might be playing the knee wrestling game. Don't do that if you are.

    I don’t play the knee wrestling game but my opponents do. This means I have to pull guard everytime I do Newaza which is why I’m much better off my back. My top game sucks but what can I do other than ask my opponent to pull guard

    Sweep them or take their back.
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    JudoStu

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by JudoStu on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:17 am

    hedgehogey wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:
    hedgehogey wrote:Also you might be playing the knee wrestling game. Don't do that if you are.

    I don’t play the knee wrestling game but my opponents do. This means I have to pull guard everytime I do Newaza which is why I’m much better off my back. My top game sucks but what can I do other than ask my opponent to pull guard

    Sweep them or take their back.
    I do if they are lower ranked than me but against the better players its not that easy, wel lnot for me anyway


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    Q mystic

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by Q mystic on Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:15 am

    gabe_tash wrote:
    hedgehogey wrote:I think you might have evaluated your BJJ experience wrong. I find it a rare shodan who can hang with a mid level blue when push comes to shove.

    Really though?

    No, not really. He's just messing with you via non-vet crosstraining language. Very Happy

    HH knows that there are many blackbelts in judo that can be smoked by judo blues and browns, even greens and sometimes oranges. There is alot he didnt give a fair shake to there. HH also puts over-emphasis on submission. Alot of bjjjers will after being top controlled for 15 minutes finally get a sub, because sub is a huge concept in their game, and consider that not 'hanging' because they were never put under the stress of a sub attack. I remember it differently when judoka fought wrestlers who ownt them for 15 mins before they were able to sub the wrestler, and would come out saying that wrestler just freakin smoked them.lol.

    newazafrank

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by newazafrank on Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:36 pm

    Funny I was just gonna make a thread about this but in my case it's the opposite. I'm good at newaza randori, can hang with most black belts but I struggle in shiai. Just this weekend I failed with a seoi nage attempt and my opponent stuffed me down to all fours. Naturally I wanna recover guard but instead I ended up being pinned, and this has happened a few times to me.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by Wandering WB on Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:35 am

    Funny I was just gonna make a thread about this but in my case it's the opposite. I'm good at newaza randori, can hang with most black belts but I struggle in shiai. Just this weekend I failed with a seoi nage attempt and my opponent stuffed me down to all fours. Naturally I wanna recover guard but instead I ended up being pinned, and this has happened a few times to me.
    If I understand correctly, when you do the roll to recover guard, your opponent blocks the leg and achieves sidemount. The simple answer is that you need to increase your skill if you want a different outcome. The long answer is that although I don't play the turtle, I know four ways to recover guard from there which may have something to do with why I don't get caught in that position. So learn some sweeps and escapes from the turtle position. Learn how to reverse the position when the opponent goes for the clock choke. Also, just because someone has you under sidecontrol, doesn't mean you should want to stay there - learn some escapes from osaekomi. And well, obviously, learn the shoulder throw better - maybe follow it up with a hand sweep so that the opponent has to defend, not you.
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    JudoStu

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by JudoStu on Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:44 am

    newazafrank wrote:Funny I was just gonna make a thread about this but in my case it's the opposite. I'm good at newaza randori, can hang with most black belts but I struggle in shiai. Just this weekend I failed with a seoi nage attempt and my opponent stuffed me down to all fours. Naturally I wanna recover guard but instead I ended up being pinned, and this has happened a few times to me.
    In class I will often try to retain guard rather than turtle up but I understand in shiai its a risky game to play.
    Maybe Turtling until the ref stands you back up is the safest option.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:29 am

    JudoStu wrote:
    newazafrank wrote:Funny I was just gonna make a thread about this but in my case it's the opposite. I'm good at newaza randori, can hang with most black belts but I struggle in shiai. Just this weekend I failed with a seoi nage attempt and my opponent stuffed me down to all fours. Naturally I wanna recover guard but instead I ended up being pinned, and this has happened a few times to me.
    In class I will often try to retain guard rather than turtle up but I understand in shiai its a risky game to play.
    Maybe Turtling until the ref stands you back up is the safest option.

    I think in the long run it's better to work on recovering to guard from a failed throw than stay in turtle (this in randori). You need to have the skill, and then as you progress and gain experience with different relative positions of uke and tori in post-throw situtations, you can start to be aware of what is going on in shiai and make conscious decisions.

    Also, you can position your self in turtle relative to uke to make it more difficult for him to turn you or get on your back. It's best to face your opponent when you are turtled, and be active, looking for workable openings to attack or immprove your position. Be mobile there and it will improve your chances.

    Learn from being pinned, it's randori, who cares? YOu can work on escapes/reversals at that point.

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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:30 am

    JudoStu wrote:
    newazafrank wrote:Funny I was just gonna make a thread about this but in my case it's the opposite. I'm good at newaza randori, can hang with most black belts but I struggle in shiai. Just this weekend I failed with a seoi nage attempt and my opponent stuffed me down to all fours. Naturally I wanna recover guard but instead I ended up being pinned, and this has happened a few times to me.
    In class I will often try to retain guard rather than turtle up but I understand in shiai its a risky game to play.
    Maybe Turtling until the ref stands you back up is the safest option.

    Not against some people! And with more time being allowed for ne waza, even less so in general.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by Wandering WB on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:19 am

    I think in the long run it's better to work on recovering to guard from a failed throw than stay in turtle (this in randori). You need to have the skill, and then as you progress and gain experience with different relative positions of uke and tori in post-throw situtations, you can start to be aware of what is going on in shiai and make conscious decisions.

    Also, you can position your self in turtle relative to uke to make it more difficult for him to turn you or get on your back. It's best to face your opponent when you are turtled, and be active, looking for workable openings to attack or immprove your position. Be mobile there and it will improve your chances.

    Learn from being pinned, it's randori, who cares? YOu can work on escapes/reversals at that point.
    Hey, Reinhardt, that's what I was gonna say! By the way, my competition vid should be up today or tomorrow, maybe you can tell me what you think.
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    Q mystic

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by Q mystic on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:10 am

    Wandering WB wrote:
    I think in the long run it's better to work on recovering to guard from a failed throw than stay in turtle (this in randori). You need to have the skill, and then as you progress and gain experience with different relative positions of uke and tori in post-throw situtations, you can start to be aware of what is going on in shiai and make conscious decisions.

    Also, you can position your self in turtle relative to uke to make it more difficult for him to turn you or get on your back. It's best to face your opponent when you are turtled, and be active, looking for workable openings to attack or immprove your position. Be mobile there and it will improve your chances.

    Learn from being pinned, it's randori, who cares? YOu can work on escapes/reversals at that point.

    Hey, Reinhardt, that's what I was gonna say! By the way, my competition vid should be up today or tomorrow, maybe you can tell me what you think.

    hahaha. Sheety. Not 20 mins ago I was going to compliment your denial of turtle with your failed left seoinage to ankle pick for top. Thats what it is. I did compliment you generally but was too lazy to go into the seoi. I'm no fan of gaurd but I dont know alot of it either. Point is, I see it like..throw, if throw fails, scramble, if fail, turtle. Gaurd to me, is a waste of time.

    Back in my early judo days I went to turtle after a hint of my throw not going the way it should. You just get unmotivated and/or lazy. Still scored for aggression tho and a good defence to boot, right? Then, when I went to wrestling to apply my judo there, my judo turtle recieved a gawdawful beatdown. It hurt and it sucked. I learned pretty quick how much room there is from a failed throw attempt to turtle. Lots of scrambling room. Still lots of control even if the throw doesnt go the same way you like.

    Sry, babbling, but I just hate the gaurd so much that I do believe, if you focus on not getting there and holding the turtle concept as only a very, very last resort, then one would be better off. No gaurd concept at all really.

    Practice gaurd if you like. Fast sub/sweep drills but thats it. Just reflex, no concept.

    Just chat of course. Very Happy

    hedgehogey

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

    Post by hedgehogey on Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:23 pm

    And there you have it, the 'How to stay horrible at ne waza for your entire judo career' manifesto.

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    Re: Good in newaza, bad in newaza randori?

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