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    Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

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    Deshi

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    Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by Deshi on Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:26 am

    As far as I know "Taiho Jutsu" refers to arresting techniques.
    I am not sure, but it seems the term "Taiho Jutsu" is used to
    denote any set off martial arts techniques/any adopted style by a Japanese
    police force.
    Thus I wonder what exactly we see here. The description mentions,
    that the instructors are from the Kodokan, thus I assume this is
    old school Kodokan Judo:
    Classic Taiho Jutsu

    Can anybody confirm or refute this? I am very curious what it is.

    wdax

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by wdax on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:18 am

    As the title says: this is Taiho-jutsu. Taiho-jutsu is a police self-defence system, that was developed for the needs of police. Kodokan instructors were involved with the creation of the system, what doesn´t mean automatically, that it is Kodokan-Judo.

    I don´like the term "old school judo", because it has a notion to be contrary to todays judo. Kodokan Judo is Kodokan Judo, there is no "old-" or "new-school" - only development and evolution. Quality in some aspects grows, in other it declines, but this would be a different discussion.

    I don´t know, if you are familiar with Kodokan Goshinjutsu. Some of the techniques shown in the clip are taken from Kodokan Goshinjutsu or imported to it (I don´t know, when the clip was recorded, Kodokan Goshinjutsu was officially introduced 1956, so I don´t know what was first).

    In the clip we see a lot of wristlocks (Kote-gaeshi and Kote-hineri) and combined locks against the elbow (Te-gatame) and the wrist (Kote-hineri). These were to the best of my knowledge imported into judo from Aikido via Tomiki.

    But anyhow: the clip shows the practitical side of self-defence in a way, that was introduced into Kodokan-Judo at least during the mid 1950s.

    I´m sure NBK can offer a lot more details on it.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:39 am

    Deshi wrote:As far as I know "Taiho Jutsu" refers to arresting techniques.
    I am not sure, but it seems the term "Taiho Jutsu" is used to
    denote any set off martial arts techniques/any adopted style by a Japanese
    police force.
    Thus I wonder what exactly we see here. The description mentions,
    that the instructors are from the Kodokan, thus I assume this is
    old school Kodokan Judo:
    Classic Taiho Jutsu

    Can anybody confirm or refute this? I am very curious what it is.

    NBK has written several posts on this on the old forum.


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    afja_lm139

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by afja_lm139 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:48 am

    Deshi wrote:As far as I know "Taiho Jutsu" refers to arresting techniques.
    I am not sure, but it seems the term "Taiho Jutsu" is used to
    denote any set off martial arts techniques/any adopted style by a Japanese
    police force.
    Thus I wonder what exactly we see here. The description mentions,
    that the instructors are from the Kodokan, thus I assume this is
    old school Kodokan Judo:
    Classic Taiho Jutsu

    Can anybody confirm or refute this? I am very curious what it is.

    It is what we used do at regular Judo dojo practice in another life time. Would do it a few times a month weather we needed it or not Smile. As time passed atemi waza, Taiho Jutsu and kata were normal activities in Kodokan Judo. We even practiced ukami! Such a deal to learn out to defend oneself from another Judoka. Smile
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    NBK

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by NBK on Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:45 am

    Taihojutsu literally is 'arresting techniques'. The Tokyo Metropolitan Police developed a 'toridekata' early 1900's, calling it a judo kata. That evolved over the years but Taihojutsu was always taught by TMP senior police judo shihan or a specialist judoka. But it was not really considered judo per se, I think.

    That changed in the 1940's when instruction shifted to the kendo division. There was one senior kendo instructor who apparently convinced someone that since weapons are involved that it should be theirs. the instructor was an interesting guy who had classic budo training; he introduced a complex kata based on some koryu that included takedowns against bo and naginata. It is now only performed by a couple of guys, one I know well, on ceremonial occasions.

    Hosokawa sensei was apparently one of if not the last judoka to teach it; now it is taught by the jodo section of the kendo division. There's an entire set of protective clothing, masks, padded tanbo, jo, gloves etc. I can't find any judoka in the police that really practice it.

    Frankly overall it seems to have gone the way of many combatives - overly watered down and under practiced. But its supporters note that some of the berserk knife wielding nut jobs that pop up periodically are taken down by some street cop who pulls out his collapsible baton and wades in.

    Hosokawa sensei was close to my judo sensei, Sato Shizuya, the Sato noted in the notes on the video. He loved to practice this type of movement and incorporate it into his Nihon Jujutsu curriculum.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:10 am

    NBK wrote:Taihojutsu literally is 'arresting techniques'. The Tokyo Metropolitan Police developed a 'toridekata' early 1900's, calling it a judo kata. That evolved over the years but Taihojutsu was always taught by TMP senior police judo shihan or a specialist judoka. But it was not really considered judo per se, I think.

    That changed in the 1940's when instruction shifted to the kendo division. There was one senior kendo instructor who apparently convinced someone that since weapons are involved that it should be theirs. the instructor was an interesting guy who had classic budo training; he introduced a complex kata based on some koryu that included takedowns against bo and naginata. It is now only performed by a couple of guys, one I know well, on ceremonial occasions.

    Hosokawa sensei was apparently one of if not the last judoka to teach it; now it is taught by the jodo section of the kendo division. There's an entire set of protective clothing, masks, padded tanbo, jo, gloves etc. I can't find any judoka in the police that really practice it.

    Frankly overall it seems to have gone the way of many combatives - overly watered down and under practiced. But its supporters note that some of the berserk knife wielding nut jobs that pop up periodically are taken down by some street cop who pulls out his collapsible baton and wades in.

    Hosokawa sensei was close to my judo sensei, Sato Shizuya, the Sato noted in the notes on the video. He loved to practice this type of movement and incorporate it into his Nihon Jujutsu curriculum.

    When I used to train in Kyôto the police there practised it. They sometimes just finished before we (judo) were on. There were shelves against the wall, kind of large pigeon holes that contained their stuff. There it was practised in the judo dojo, not in the kendo dojo. I 'assume' they still practice it, but what do I know, since I have not been back in more than a decade.


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    Deshi

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by Deshi on Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:16 pm

    wdax wrote:As the title says: this is Taiho-jutsu. Taiho-jutsu is a police self-defence system, that was developed for the needs of police. Kodokan instructors were involved with the creation of the system, what doesn´t mean automatically, that it is Kodokan-Judo.

    I don´like the term "old school judo", because it has a notion to be contrary to todays judo. Kodokan Judo is Kodokan Judo, there is no "old-" or "new-school" - only development and evolution. Quality in some aspects grows, in other it declines, but this would be a different discussion.

    I don´t know, if you are familiar with Kodokan Goshinjutsu. Some of the techniques shown in the clip are taken from Kodokan Goshinjutsu or imported to it (I don´t know, when the clip was recorded, Kodokan Goshinjutsu was officially introduced 1956, so I don´t know what was first).

    In the clip we see a lot of wristlocks (Kote-gaeshi and Kote-hineri) and combined locks against the elbow (Te-gatame) and the wrist (Kote-hineri). These were to the best of my knowledge imported into judo from Aikido via Tomiki.

    But anyhow: the clip shows the practitical side of self-defence in a way, that was introduced into Kodokan-Judo at least during the mid 1950s.

    I´m sure NBK can offer a lot more details on it.

    I've at least seen several selfdefense themed Kodokan kata (Kime no Kata, Kodokan Goshin Jutsu, Mifunes version of the same, the Kime Shiki part of the "SZKTnK", Joshin Goshin Ho), but sometimes I wonder if there once was more than that. At times I've stumbled over rumors, single pictures, short clips that point towards lessons, that don't seem to be taught today anymore or only by very few. Somewhere I read about Judo atemi drills that are very similar to drills of FMA, there are old Judo books filled with selfdefense techniques not covered in the kata mentioned above (though they might stem from other styles, since the words "Judo" and "Jujutsu" were used in a very loose and interchangeable way).
    In short: I wonder what they practiced at the Kodokan aside from the well covered "mainstream stuff" we know today.
    Take a look at this clip for example (the Judo part starts around 00:25:20):
    Judo in an old newsreel
    (They added an index to the Judo part to 00:25:40, but you'll miss some interesting bits in the first seconds,
    if you jump there).

    afja_lm139 wrote:It is what we used do at regular Judo dojo practice in another life time. Would do it a few times a month weather we needed it or not Smile. As time passed atemi waza, Taiho Jutsu and kata were normal activities in Kodokan Judo. We even practiced ukami! Such a deal to learn out to defend oneself from another Judoka. Smile

    That is very interesting. When was that? What did the training look like? How "free" was it? Was "sparring" involved or "drills"? Was it formal kata training only?
    Excuse my unknowingness, but what are "ukami" (assuming it's not another transcription for "ukemi")?

    NBK wrote:Taihojutsu literally is 'arresting techniques'. The Tokyo Metropolitan Police developed a 'toridekata' early 1900's, calling it a judo kata. That evolved over the years but Taihojutsu was always taught by TMP senior police judo shihan or a specialist judoka. But it was not really considered judo per se, I think.

    That changed in the 1940's when instruction shifted to the kendo division. There was one senior kendo instructor who apparently convinced someone that since weapons are involved that it should be theirs. the instructor was an interesting guy who had classic budo training; he introduced a complex kata based on some koryu that included takedowns against bo and naginata. It is now only performed by a couple of guys, one I know well, on ceremonial occasions.

    Hosokawa sensei was apparently one of if not the last judoka to teach it; now it is taught by the jodo section of the kendo division. There's an entire set of protective clothing, masks, padded tanbo, jo, gloves etc. I can't find any judoka in the police that really practice it.

    Frankly overall it seems to have gone the way of many combatives - overly watered down and under practiced. But its supporters note that some of the berserk knife wielding nut jobs that pop up periodically are taken down by some street cop who pulls out his collapsible baton and wades in.

    Hosokawa sensei was close to my judo sensei, Sato Shizuya, the Sato noted in the notes on the video. He loved to practice this type of movement and incorporate it into his Nihon Jujutsu curriculum.

    Very insightful. The more I learn, the more difficult it seems to me to make a clear distinction between Judo and its hybrid styles or related styles.
    The Tokyo Metropolitan Police practiced Judo (after that famous contest between the Kodokan and a koryu school), didn't they? Wouldn't it be correct then, to say that the toridekata was Judo?

    wdax

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by wdax on Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:13 pm

    The problem IMHO is, that all over the world "traditional judo" is invented by many people, who are either unsatisfied with the current state of judo or who are seeking for legitimacy, recognition or simply for customers.

    (For the term "invented tradition" please look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invented_traditions )

    It´s almost impossible to make a clear distinction between judo and jujutsu. Even Kano struggled with this. The technical syllabus is overlapping and when it comes to effective training, both have to follow the laws of learning and training.

    According to Kano, the most important difference between the two is the purpose: While jujutsu is targeted for the purpose of combat with having some educational value, (Kodokan-)Judo is designed to be a system of physical, moral and intellectual education with having some value for self-defence (which is an integral part of education).

    No doubt (at least for me), Jujutsu and Judo are overlapping and a distinction cannot be made by comparing techniques.

    The Tokyo Metropolitan Police practiced Judo (after that famous contest between the Kodokan and a koryu school), didn't they?
    They invited Yokoyama and Yamashita as instructors - beside many others from other schools. So it´s not wrong to say, that judo was practiced there, but it´s definitely wrong to say, that they practiced only/pure Kodokan-Judo.

    kastow

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by kastow on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:38 am

    Deshi wrote:Somewhere I read about Judo atemi drills that are very similar to drills of FMA, [...]
    I do not know whether there where really ever those FMA-like drills in the older days of Kôdôkan-Jûdô, but me myself, I use a modified hubud lubud drill (starting at 0:40) to repeat the deflection of suri-age, tsuki-kake and tsuki-komi of kime-no-kata in an infinite loop. Another possibility is to create your own drills by practicing only parts of the known Kôdôkan-Kata in Uchi-komi-style as well in an infinite loop. wdax for example teaches some nice drills he created for Jû-no-kata. Maybe he will write more on them.

    Deshi

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by Deshi on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:42 am

    wdax wrote:The problem IMHO is, that all over the world "traditional judo" is invented by many people, who are either unsatisfied with the current state of judo or who are seeking for legitimacy, recognition or simply for customers.
    I fear no martial arts style in the world is free of this problem. That aside I don't try to invent something new (or try to be an 'ultra traditionalist' or something like that), I am merely curious what the entire technical canon of Kodokan Judo looks like and I fear that most publications don't cover it in its entirety.

    wdax wrote:(For the term "invented tradition" please look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invented_traditions )

    I came across that term before, namely in your excellent article series on the history of Judo (I hope I don't confuse you with someone else). You mentioned that Budo and Bushido as understood today fall into that category.

    wdax wrote:It´s almost impossible to make a clear distinction between judo and jujutsu. Even Kano struggled with this. The technical syllabus is overlapping and when it comes to effective training, both have to follow the laws of learning and training.

    According to Kano, the most important difference between the two is the purpose: While jujutsu is targeted for the purpose of combat with having some educational value, (Kodokan-)Judo is designed to be a system of physical, moral and intellectual education with having some value for self-defence (which is an integral part of education).

    No doubt (at least for me), Jujutsu and Judo are overlapping and a distinction cannot be made by comparing techniques.

    The "three dimensions of goals" in Judo, yes I am aware of them (though as an underperforming judoka I don't really excel at them). But there are also the guiding principles "Seiryoko Zenyo" and "Jita Kyoei". Especially the first one had a major influence on what techniques were adopted from the koryu bugai and if and how they were improved before they became part of Judo. Other techniques were specifically new inventions of judoka.
    So there are techniques of which we can clearly say they (now) belong to Judo. This is true for many throws
    and a lot of gatame waza. But there's also a rather foggy area outside the well documented "mainstream" group of techniques. There are neck and leg locks in a book by Feldenkrais, there are atemi waza in a book by Kawaishi and I wonder, if these are official Kodokan Judo techniques, especially by the principle Seiryoko Zenyo and if these sources cover everything there is to know about them. Let's just say I am very frustrated with that foggy area of Judo being... foggy.

    wdax wrote:They invited Yokoyama and Yamashita as instructors - beside many others from other schools. So it´s not wrong to say, that judo was practiced there, but it´s definitely wrong to say, that they practiced only/pure Kodokan-Judo.
    Thanks for this clarification.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:58 am

    Deshi wrote:
    wdax wrote:As the title says: this is Taiho-jutsu. Taiho-jutsu is a police self-defence system, that was developed for the needs of police. Kodokan instructors were involved with the creation of the system, what doesn´t mean automatically, that it is Kodokan-Judo.

    I don´like the term "old school judo", because it has a notion to be contrary to todays judo. Kodokan Judo is Kodokan Judo, there is no "old-" or "new-school" - only development and evolution. Quality in some aspects grows, in other it declines, but this would be a different discussion.

    I don´t know, if you are familiar with Kodokan Goshinjutsu. Some of the techniques shown in the clip are taken from Kodokan Goshinjutsu or imported to it (I don´t know, when the clip was recorded, Kodokan Goshinjutsu was officially introduced 1956, so I don´t know what was first).

    In the clip we see a lot of wristlocks (Kote-gaeshi and Kote-hineri) and combined locks against the elbow (Te-gatame) and the wrist (Kote-hineri). These were to the best of my knowledge imported into judo from Aikido via Tomiki.

    But anyhow: the clip shows the practitical side of self-defence in a way, that was introduced into Kodokan-Judo at least during the mid 1950s.

    I´m sure NBK can offer a lot more details on it.

    I've at least seen several selfdefense themed Kodokan kata (Kime no Kata, Kodokan Goshin Jutsu, Mifunes version of the same, the Kime Shiki part of the "SZKTnK", Joshin Goshin Ho), but sometimes I wonder if there once was more than that. At times I've stumbled over rumors, single pictures, short clips that point towards lessons, that don't seem to be taught today anymore or only by very few. Somewhere I read about Judo atemi drills that are very similar to drills of FMA, there are old Judo books filled with selfdefense techniques not covered in the kata mentioned above (though they might stem from other styles, since the words "Judo" and "Jujutsu" were used in a very loose and interchangeable way).
    In short: I wonder what they practiced at the Kodokan aside from the well covered "mainstream stuff" we know today.
    Take a look at this clip for example (the Judo part starts around 00:25:20):
    Judo in an old newsreel
    (They added an index to the Judo part to 00:25:40, but you'll miss some interesting bits in the first seconds,
    if you jump there).

    afja_lm139 wrote:It is what we used do at regular Judo dojo practice in another life time. Would do it a few times a month weather we needed it or not Smile. As time passed atemi waza, Taiho Jutsu and kata were normal activities in Kodokan Judo. We even practiced ukami! Such a deal to learn out to defend oneself from another Judoka. Smile

    That is very interesting. When was that? What did the training look like? How "free" was it? Was "sparring" involved or "drills"? Was it formal kata training only?
    Excuse my unknowingness, but what are "ukami" (assuming it's not another transcription for "ukemi")?

    NBK wrote:Taihojutsu literally is 'arresting techniques'. The Tokyo Metropolitan Police developed a 'toridekata' early 1900's, calling it a judo kata. That evolved over the years but Taihojutsu was always taught by TMP senior police judo shihan or a specialist judoka. But it was not really considered judo per se, I think.

    That changed in the 1940's when instruction shifted to the kendo division. There was one senior kendo instructor who apparently convinced someone that since weapons are involved that it should be theirs. the instructor was an interesting guy who had classic budo training; he introduced a complex kata based on some koryu that included takedowns against bo and naginata. It is now only performed by a couple of guys, one I know well, on ceremonial occasions.

    Hosokawa sensei was apparently one of if not the last judoka to teach it; now it is taught by the jodo section of the kendo division. There's an entire set of protective clothing, masks, padded tanbo, jo, gloves etc. I can't find any judoka in the police that really practice it.

    Frankly overall it seems to have gone the way of many combatives - overly watered down and under practiced. But its supporters note that some of the berserk knife wielding nut jobs that pop up periodically are taken down by some street cop who pulls out his collapsible baton and wades in.

    Hosokawa sensei was close to my judo sensei, Sato Shizuya, the Sato noted in the notes on the video. He loved to practice this type of movement and incorporate it into his Nihon Jujutsu curriculum.

    Very insightful. The more I learn, the more difficult it seems to me to make a clear distinction between Judo and its hybrid styles or related styles.
    The Tokyo Metropolitan Police practiced Judo (after that famous contest between the Kodokan and a koryu school), didn't they? Wouldn't it be correct then, to say that the toridekata was Judo?

    There is no such thing as lost judo, except for sometimes very first versions not having been preserved, such as some of the original kata. But even so, there were no secret techniques, or things that were are now missing. For some time it was suggested that gô-no-kata was such a lost kata. It isn't, and knowing it is not suddenly going to bless you with secret knowledge, as it is primitive judo, a development stage of judo. You will find now and then certain techniques that are no longer seen like tsuri-otoshi or uchi-guruma, but again to think that these are new, special techniques and that if you would know them you would have some secret, additional arsenal of techniques that could give you the victory, is nonsense. The reason they were ditched is because they were largely ineffective, or could be considered variations of other techniques, things like so many other variations you see in competition and that have no specific name and are rather chaotic.

    There is no secret or additional judo or self-defense. You simply had most people in judo who cross-trained in koryu and who also kept training in those arts. When Japanese masters came to the West they often were still trained in other disciplines, or even more extreme, did not even know judo, but became part of Kanô's marketing tricks. Take someone as Koizumi. He did not even know any judo originally, but was promoted to second dan black belt by Kanô as part of getting people over to Kodokan to compete other arts away. Thus what these people additionally taught was not "other/additional judo", but simply there own art.

    Training in judo was far more primitive in those days as is shown on original footage from the 1930s. There is nothing special. You ask what was trained, whether that was just kata or not ? If you had read many of the previous conversations (I do not mean this in a rude way, I am simply stating this as a neutral fact), then you would know that judo was delivered just in the way it was attended, that is, as: randori, kata, kôgi, and mondô. Take someone as Keiko Fukuda, often labelled as Kanô's last student. The idea that has been constructed by Westerners has nothing to do with reality. I asked Fukuda in person if she had actually been taught or received actual judo training from Kanô. The answer was 'no', he only stopped by now and then in the women's dojo. But ... and this is very important, there were quite a bit of conversations between Fukuda and Kanô. This was a integral part of "jûdô training", that was 'mondô', and it is clear especially from her first book and her teachings that there was a lot of authentic Kanô in there. This is precisely what an educattion is. Jûdô isn't the mere vocational stuff people most often do today. So, if any "extra training", then it's really just the part that modern day jûdôka won't have anything to do with anymore, the intellectual part, because that would force them to actually study rather than just have fun and fight and win medals.

    If you know the historic Kanô you would also understand why there were no extra techniques. Even Mifune's attempts to add stuff were angrily blown off by Kanô, and Kanô was not pleased at all when visiting the UK and Koizumi thought he was being smart by showing Kanô some stuff he had wanted to add to jû-no-kata. So, no way. You will find in books like Uchida Ryôhei stuff that is not in current Kôdôkan jûdô, but it also never was. What you see is mostly the result of crosstrainig. There was massive cross-training betwee koryu schools such as Kito-ryu, Tenjin Shin'yo-ryu, Sosuishitsu-ryu, Takeuchi Santo-ryu, and the Kodokan.

    Where it gets somewhat confusing, unless you are really versed in judo history and understand all the Japanese language nuances, towards the end of his life, Kanô wanted budô to be part of jûdô. This clearly views jûdô as something distinctively different from how most Westerners understand it who see jûdô, just like karatedô and aikidô as part of budô. Precisely because jûdô was meant as an education and not as 'just' a martial art it is, however, evident that it was meant as an encompassing concept.

    I doubt that most people today would really be interested in learning jûdô the way Kanô meant it. Have you actually read some of the stuff he edited in Japanese ? You know what is in there ? Things that have nothing to do whatsoever with martial arts, things such as pages long explanation about how to write English sentences, discussions about certain plays by Shakespeare, etc. It's a school education, encompassing training towards increasing your intellectual level, and without ignoring your physical body, that's what it is. It's stuff that would require people to read books, discuss. What it is no, is all kinds of secret, additional ninja techniques or 1-inch punches that would make you invincible.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:20 am; edited 1 time in total


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    afja_lm139

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by afja_lm139 on Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:11 am

    Deshi, you wrote, "That is very interesting. When was that? What did the training look like? How "free" was it? Was "sparring" involved or "drills"? Was it formal kata training only? Excuse my unknowingness, but what are "ukami" (assuming it's not another transcription for "ukemi")?"

    Auto spell checker is ignorant of Judo. Yes, “ukemi”. is the operative word. From 1952 until around 1989. Most of the “old school” Judo in my life was during my USAF career (1960 – 68) and whilst living in South Florida (1973 – 1989). It looked much like the video in the first post herein. While living on Okinawa I was schooled in Matsubashiryu Shorin karate and a little Gojuryu as well, but since none of that was available in the USA then I lost interest in it until later on. Boring while practicing all alone Smile

    Many of us Air Force guys went to the Kodokan when possible and also the SAC-ARDC combative mesasures courses at the Kodokan, where we learned all kinds of Martial Arts self-defense stuff. That kind of Judo is not of much interest now days; we used to have fun doing it and much talk and beer drinking after workouts. It was much fun all those years before teaching got to be boring, but it it was fun while it lasted.

    My memory grows foggy as the years pass, so some of this stuff can be found on the Net and would be more informative than what I could write here. My involvement in Martial Arts fizzled out around 1989 and all I do now is marvel over videos posted here, there and yonder.


    Last edited by afja_lm139 on Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:10 am; edited 4 times in total
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:12 am

    Deshi wrote:
    wdax wrote:(For the term "invented tradition" please look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invented_traditions )

    I came across that term before, namely in your excellent article series on the history of Judo (I hope I don't confuse you with someone else). You mentioned that Budo and Bushido as understood today fall into that category.

    Um, no, budô is not an invented tradition at all.

    An North American school of thought (US & Canada) has suggested this regarding bushidô, and there is at least as much evidence of the contrary. One could at least argue as strongly that the idea of "invented tradition" is an invention itself. What is true is that the set of values that are today understood under bushidô were not always called bushidô nor always existed as a single coded idea. What is also true is that probably the most famous book to have introduced to the West, namely that by Nitobe Inazo is obviously romanticized.

    As usual with these cases unless you have at least the same level of specialized historic scholarly knowledge to question or counter on an objective basis whatever claim made, you would be in a poor position to do much with those findings. I note, once more, that those who have suggested that these concepts would be invented ideas, have quite remarkably selectively excluded most scholarly research that claims the complete opposite (for example, the PhD Dissertation and excellent historic work of Professor Catherina Blomberg) from their reference section ... One could expect that at least proper scholarly research would oppose both the supporting and nonsupporting sources rather than selectively withhold only that what is in support of one's own views (note: do not misinterpret at all what I write as a sneer to wdax).


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by wdax on Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:26 am

    Deshi wrote:I fear no martial arts style in the world is free of this problem. That aside I don't try to invent something new (or try to be an 'ultra traditionalist' or something like that), I am merely curious what the entire technical canon of Kodokan Judo looks like and I fear that most publications don't cover it in its entirety.
    I did not mean, that you are "inventing" traditional judo, but others do. And that´s what confuses you (and others).

    Cichorei Kano wrote:(note: do not misinterpret at all what I write as a sneer to wdax; on the contrary, wdax has put great care into writing what he wrote, and you are not quite correctly quoting what he wrote).
    The problem is, that the idea of what bushido really means has changed over the years. Please look here
    http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t372-bushido-the-creation-of-a-martial-ethic-in-late-meiji-japan

    It was one of the sources for my article about bushido.

    But I´m a little bit surprised, that "Deshi" knows my article - it was only published in german and only in a regional judo-magazine which is not in available in stores.... Please enlighten me.

    Next month a shorter version will be published in the german judo-magazine. I hope it´s not oversimplified.

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by Deshi on Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:02 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:There is no such thing as lost judo, except for sometimes very first versions not having been preserved, such as some of the original kata. But even so, there were no secret techniques, or things that were are now missing. For some time it was suggested that gô-no-kata was such a lost kata. It isn't, and knowing it is not suddenly going to bless you with secret knowledge, as it is primitive judo, a development stage of judo. You will find now and then certain techniques that are no longer seen like tsuri-otoshi or uchi-guruma, but again to think that these are new, special techniques and that if you would know them you would have some secret, additional arsenal of techniques that could give you the victory, is nonsense. The reason they were ditched is because they were largely ineffective, or could be considered variations of other techniques, things like so many other variations you see in competition and that have no specific name and are rather chaotic.

    There is no secret or additional judo or self-defense. You simply had most people in judo who cross-trained in koryu and who also kept training in those arts. When Japanese masters came to the West they often were still trained in other disciplines, or even more extreme, did not even know judo, but became part of Kanô's marketing tricks. Take someone as Koizumi. He did not even know any judo originally, but was promoted to second dan black belt by Kanô as part of getting people over to Kodokan to compete other arts away. Thus what these people additionally taught was not "other/additional judo", but simply there own art.

    Training in judo was far more primitive in those days as is shown on original footage from the 1930s. There is nothing special. You ask what was trained, whether that was just kata or not ? If you had read many of the previous conversations (I do not mean this in a rude way, I am simply stating this as a neutral fact), then you would know that judo was delivered just in the way it was attended, that is, as: randori, kata, kôgi, and mondô. Take someone as Keiko Fukuda, often labelled as Kanô's last student. The idea that has been constructed by Westerners has nothing to do with reality. I asked Fukuda in person if she had actually been taught or received actual judo training from Kanô. The answer was 'no', he only stopped by now and then in the women's dojo. But ... and this is very important, there were quite a bit of conversations between Fukuda and Kanô. This was a integral part of "jûdô training", that was 'mondô', and it is clear especially from her first book and her teachings that there was a lot of authentic Kanô in there. This is precisely what an educattion is. Jûdô isn't the mere vocational stuff people most often do today. So, if any "extra training", then it's really just the part that modern day jûdôka won't have anything to do with anymore, the intellectual part, because that would force them to actually study rather than just have fun and fight and win medals.

    If you know the historic Kanô you would also understand why there were no extra techniques. Even Mifune's attempts to add stuff were angrily blown off by Kanô, and Kanô was not pleased at all when visiting the UK and Koizumi thought he was being smart by showing Kanô some stuff he had wanted to add to jû-no-kata. So, no way. You will find in books like Uchida Ryôhei stuff that is not in current Kôdôkan jûdô, but it also never was. What you see is mostly the result of crosstrainig. There was massive cross-training betwee koryu schools such as Kito-ryu, Tenjin Shin'yo-ryu, Sosuishitsu-ryu, Takeuchi Santo-ryu, and the Kodokan.

    Where it gets somewhat confusing, unless you are really versed in judo history and understand all the Japanese language nuances, towards the end of his life, Kanô wanted budô to be part of jûdô. This clearly views jûdô as something distinctively different from how most Westerners understand it who see jûdô, just like karatedô and aikidô as part of budô. Precisely because jûdô was meant as an education and not as 'just' a martial art it is, however, evident that it was meant as an encompassing concept.

    I doubt that most people today would really be interested in learning jûdô the way Kanô meant it. Have you actually read some of the stuff he edited in Japanese ? You know what is in there ? Things that have nothing to do whatsoever with martial arts, things such as pages long explanation about how to write English sentences, discussions about certain plays by Shakespeare, etc. It's a school education, encompassing training towards increasing your intellectual level, and without ignoring your physical body, that's what it is. It's stuff that would require people to read books, discuss. What it is no, is all kinds of secret, additional ninja techniques or 1-inch punches that would make you invincible.

    Thank you very much for your elaborate reply. For clarification: I am neither looking for "super ninja secret techniques", nor do I expect them to exist. I am merely trying to get a complete picture of Judo, which is quite difficult due to the reasons you mentioned above. But let me describe the situation as it presents itself to me as a layman. A few years ago I started doing Judo again, with a lot more interest than in my youth. I realized very quickly how little I knew and how much more there was to learn than I ever expected. Atemi waza? I never even knew they existed. I was very happy, when I heard, that the book "Kodokan Judo" contained further information about them. I bought it and found... 3 pages. 3 pages of over 260. No photos, no details on how to do them. Nothing on breathing, nothing about hip movement, nothing about the use of hara, nothing about the alignment of the fist.
    I also bought "The Canon of Judo" by Mifune. There are like 2 sentences about Atemi Waza in the entire book. I bought another book by Neil Ohlenkamp, which states there are Atemi Waza in Judo and then tells you they are not covered in the book. It's like there was some sort of agreement to say:"Atemi Waza? Yes we have them, but we won't tell you anything detailed about them."

    Don't get me wrong, the books mentioned above are all very good ones, but they all give you the impression that there is more.

    I stumbled across a few sources, that went further into detail, but they were all by people who crosstrained, didn't train Judo at all or invented their own stuff. And even if it was actually Judo I had no way to tell, since I have no "official" sources to compare.

    Cichorei Kano wrote:... (note: do not misinterpret at all what I write as a sneer to wdax; on the contrary, wdax has put great care into writing what he wrote, and you are not quite correctly quoting what he wrote).
    Sorry if I did so.

    wdax wrote:But I´m a little bit surprised, that "Deshi" knows my article - it was only published in german and only in a regional judo-magazine which is not in available in stores.... Please enlighten me.

    Next month a shorter version will be published in the german judo-magazine. I hope it´s not oversimplified.
    I am from Germany. The article series of yours, that I was refering to is here on the NWDK page:
    Grundwissen der Geschichte des Kōdōkan-Jūdō in Japan
    In part 1 on page 3 you mention Budo, Bushido and the term invented tradition. I probably misunderstood it.

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by Deshi on Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:14 am

    kastow wrote:
    Deshi wrote:Somewhere I read about Judo atemi drills that are very similar to drills of FMA, [...]
    I do not know whether there where really ever those FMA-like drills in the older days of Kôdôkan-Jûdô, but me myself, I use a modified hubud lubud drill (starting at 0:40) to repeat the deflection of suri-age, tsuki-kake and tsuki-komi of kime-no-kata in an infinite loop. Another possibility is to create your own drills by practicing only parts of the known Kôdôkan-Kata in Uchi-komi-style as well in an infinite loop. wdax for example teaches some nice drills he created for Jû-no-kata. Maybe he will write more on them.
    This sounds like a good idea to me. I am just afraid to practice something wrong, since my knowledge about the details is very limited.
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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:29 am

    Deshi wrote:
    I stumbled across a few sources, that went further into detail, but they were all by people who crosstrained, didn't train Judo at all or invented their own stuff. And even if it was actually Judo I had no way to tell, since I have no "official" sources to compare.

    Cichorei Kano wrote:... (note: do not misinterpret at all what I write as a sneer to wdax; on the contrary, wdax has put great care into writing what he wrote ***edited***).
    Sorry if I did so.

    wdax wrote:But I´m a little bit surprised, that "Deshi" knows my article - it was only published in german and only in a regional judo-magazine which is not in available in stores.... Please enlighten me.

    Next month a shorter version will be published in the german judo-magazine. I hope it´s not oversimplified.
    I am from Germany. The article series of yours, that I was refering to is here on the NWDK page:
    Grundwissen der Geschichte des Kōdōkan-Jūdō in Japan
    In part 1 on page 3 you mention Budo, Bushido and the term invented tradition. I probably misunderstood it.

    Thanks for your response. I had understood that you were quoting wdax from elsewhere. I am going to leave it up to him to explain the part in the note of his article if he wants to. I will edit my post here on the forum where I suggest you misquoted him, and we will take it from there. My point simply was that while I can understand (though not agree) about bushidô and the invented tradition, I am struggling with extending the invented tradition to budô. Sure, most of the stuff that is written in popular books by nonscholars and typically not interested is as accurate as most books on jûdô, but that is not "invented tradition", but poor or incompetent scholarship. That is something else. In incompetent or poor scholarship one's intent is NOT to 'fabricate', but one simply does not have the tools, insight or training to do any better. But that is just my remark. Only wdax knows exactly what he meant with the original sequence and if it correctly reflects his thoughts on the matter.


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    NBK

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by NBK on Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:50 am


    Judo has evolved significantly from its original concept. The earliest judo text make it to be a clear jujutsu, greatly influenced by Tenjin Shin'yo ryu and Kito ryu, but not exclusively. There are always overlaps in curricula, with some distinctive styles such as Yagyu Shingan ryu, but Kano was the great absorber - he went to significant lengths to recruit existing teachers wherever possible, with a few notable holdouts - all of them eventually disappeared, either becoming judo instructors or dying off.

    It seems a lot of advanced judo techniques and the strikes were winnowed out as classes and dojo expanded, and Kano finally got his wish of judo in the schools. The techniques weren't suitable for children and weren't taught to children - for the early years of the 20th century. That was a time of great expansion, the expanded influence of the Busen instructors, who after all came under the Ministry of Education, and with it the various training and control issues that come with any large expansion of the teaching pool.

    Up until the 1930's you see judo instruction manuals for school teachers that include ju no kata in detail, plus nage waza. Later that changes, and more have Seiryoku Zen'yo Kokumin Taiiku and strikes and kicks. Mass exercises of children that include demonstrating the judo 'atemi no kata'.

    By the late 1930's / early 1940's, certain judo manuals look more like today's karate than judo. I have military judo manuals of the period; some are straight judo, recognizable today, and others look like, and are, karate or boxing - kick, punch, strike, block, some throws at the end. And not some circular style of karate, but linear, like Shotokan ryu.

    The concerns were different, the country was at war for 14 years - and not in some far away place like Afghanistan, but next door Manchuria and the colony of Korea, where there were millions of Japanese immigrants and families.

    So in the postwar period, many of the still vigorous judo instructors would have learn as children or practiced as pros under such a regime. It's no wonder that they understood karate style punching and kicking - it was included in their judo education. I have one instruction manual from the period, a year long judo program for kids, that is all taisabaki, punching and kicking until the final days where they introduced ogoshi. No mats or keikogi required - remember that Japan was embargoed and everything was in short supply. Just a hachimaki* and your little classmate Taro-kun as a punching bag, outside in the schoolyard.

    Granted these are not Kodokan manuals but there is other evidence that the Kodokan leadership post-Kano bought into the whole notion. The second kancho, his nephew, retired Imperial Navy Admiral Nango Jiro was not a peacenik. And it didn't matter anyhow - neither he nor the Kodokan were in charge of what defined judo and its instruction at the time outside their own doors.

    Kendo had similar combative style instruction - children got a couple of years of sword drill with bokken only, practicing cutting off arms, lopping off heads and slicing through abdomens before they were introduced to bogu and shinai, if ever. Wooden swords are cheap and you can even use just a stick, but training gear is expensive.

    *("a stylized headband (bandana) in Japanese culture, usually made of red or white cloth, worn as a symbol of perseverance, effort, and/or courage by the wearer. These are worn on many occasions, for example, by sports spectators, by women giving birth, students in cram school, office workers, expert tradesmen taking pride in their work, bōsōzoku (teen biker gangs) and even rioters." ...Wiki....

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by Deshi on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:02 am

    NBK wrote:
    Judo has evolved significantly from its original concept. The earliest judo text make it to be a clear jujutsu, greatly influenced by Tenjin Shin'yo ryu and Kito ryu, but not exclusively. There are always overlaps in curricula, with some distinctive styles such as Yagyu Shingan ryu, but Kano was the great absorber - he went to significant lengths to recruit existing teachers wherever possible, with a few notable holdouts - all of them eventually disappeared, either becoming judo instructors or dying off.

    It seems a lot of advanced judo techniques and the strikes were winnowed out as classes and dojo expanded, and Kano finally got his wish of judo in the schools. The techniques weren't suitable for children and weren't taught to children - for the early years of the 20th century. That was a time of great expansion, the expanded influence of the Busen instructors, who after all came under the Ministry of Education, and with it the various training and control issues that come with any large expansion of the teaching pool.

    Up until the 1930's you see judo instruction manuals for school teachers that include ju no kata in detail, plus nage waza. Later that changes, and more have Seiryoku Zen'yo Kokumin Taiiku and strikes and kicks. Mass exercises of children that include demonstrating the judo 'atemi no kata'.

    By the late 1930's / early 1940's, certain judo manuals look more like today's karate than judo. I have military judo manuals of the period; some are straight judo, recognizable today, and others look like, and are, karate or boxing - kick, punch, strike, block, some throws at the end. And not some circular style of karate, but linear, like Shotokan ryu.

    The concerns were different, the country was at war for 14 years - and not in some far away place like Afghanistan, but next door Manchuria and the colony of Korea, where there were millions of Japanese immigrants and families.

    So in the postwar period, many of the still vigorous judo instructors would have learn as children or practiced as pros under such a regime. It's no wonder that they understood karate style punching and kicking - it was included in their judo education. I have one instruction manual from the period, a year long judo program for kids, that is all taisabaki, punching and kicking until the final days where they introduced ogoshi. No mats or keikogi required - remember that Japan was embargoed and everything was in short supply. Just a hachimaki* and your little classmate Taro-kun as a punching bag, outside in the schoolyard.

    Granted these are not Kodokan manuals but there is other evidence that the Kodokan leadership post-Kano bought into the whole notion. The second kancho, his nephew, retired Imperial Navy Admiral Nango Jiro was not a peacenik. And it didn't matter anyhow - neither he nor the Kodokan were in charge of what defined judo and its instruction at the time outside their own doors.

    Kendo had similar combative style instruction - children got a couple of years of sword drill with bokken only, practicing cutting off arms, lopping off heads and slicing through abdomens before they were introduced to bogu and shinai, if ever. Wooden swords are cheap and you can even use just a stick, but training gear is expensive.

    *("a stylized headband (bandana) in Japanese culture, usually made of red or white cloth, worn as a symbol of perseverance, effort, and/or courage by the wearer. These are worn on many occasions, for example, by sports spectators, by women giving birth, students in cram school, office workers, expert tradesmen taking pride in their work, bōsōzoku (teen biker gangs) and even rioters." ...Wiki....

    Thank you very much for this.
    It shows how Judo is influenced by the times it is practiced in, but also that my wish to find a clear outline around the technical canon of Judo is futile.
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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

    Post by NBK on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:21 pm

    The canonical judo is a different question. This is close enough to take a lifetime to study.

    Kodokan Judo

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    Re: Is this old school Kodokan Judo?

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