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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:19 am

    PointyShinyBurning wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    finarashi wrote:Again from relevant instructions to referees, "If the standing choke does not lead to immediate submission then call mate."

    That is what I recall from as well...was just thinking the same thing when I read your post.
    What does "immediately" mean? Is is it just barring an extended struggle, or is it literally as soon as the grips are locked. In the latter case, why would anyone tap, given you can stick out even a perfectly applied strangle for a couple of seconds?

    Pefectly applied? 2 seconds is an eternity when a well applied shime is "on".


    tafftaz

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:11 am

    genetic judoka wrote:so how long would one have to apply it? do I at least get 2-3 seconds? that's all I need to finish a choke (less if it's applied perfectly). the word immediately implies that no I don't get 2-3 seconds, but a fella can hope, right?

    also, if I do throw from a choke, would it be considered entry to newaza, or can I get a score from their impact?

    I was going to stay out of this thread after my initial outburst at CK, but if you throw while you are choking someone you will invariably get hansoku make. CK made a detailed point of the action being legal,but referees today will call matte if they see someone attempting a throw while a submission is also being applied. It has happened to me and also my son. One at national champiopnships and myself at commonwealth. So as you can see the referees were not trainees at local shiai but of a relatively high standard (supposedly).
    That is what my experience is based upon.
    Applying a choke to unsettle your opponent, easing off and then throwing them is fine apparently. My arguement is throwing while applying the sub is considered illegal in shiai by a lot of refs.

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    PointyShinyBurning

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by PointyShinyBurning on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:24 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Pefectly applied? 2 seconds is an eternity when a well applied shime is "on".
    It's certainly no fun, but it's also very, very rare going to put someone out that quickly. And good guys aren't going to tap if the alternative isn't going out.

    genetic judoka

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by genetic judoka on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:31 am

    PointyShinyBurning wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Pefectly applied? 2 seconds is an eternity when a well applied shime is "on".
    It's certainly no fun, but it's also very, very rare going to put someone out that quickly. And good guys aren't going to tap if the alternative isn't going out.
    rare, yes. difficult, yes. but though shime waza is sorta my specialty, I'm not that spectacular. and I've put someone to sleep in shiai in under 2 seconds, and even faster in randori a few times.

    a PERFECTLY applied collar choke can put someone to sleep in under a second. I know this, because it was demonstrated on me, and I was asleep before I realized the demonstration had started. however the definition of PERFECTLY applied is a very specific one. all factors must be perfectly in place. any small deviation will buy uke a tiny bit of time.


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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by genetic judoka on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:32 am

    tafftaz wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:so how long would one have to apply it? do I at least get 2-3 seconds? that's all I need to finish a choke (less if it's applied perfectly). the word immediately implies that no I don't get 2-3 seconds, but a fella can hope, right?

    also, if I do throw from a choke, would it be considered entry to newaza, or can I get a score from their impact?

    I was going to stay out of this thread after my initial outburst at CK, but if you throw while you are choking someone you will invariably get hansoku make. CK made a detailed point of the action being legal,but referees today will call matte if they see someone attempting a throw while a submission is also being applied. It has happened to me and also my son. One at national champiopnships and myself at commonwealth. So as you can see the referees were not trainees at local shiai but of a relatively high standard (supposedly).
    That is what my experience is based upon.
    Applying a choke to unsettle your opponent, easing off and then throwing them is fine apparently. My arguement is throwing while applying the sub is considered illegal in shiai by a lot of refs.

    Video for ganseki otoshi
    http://youtu.be/kmnI6VnBM6s
    I hate it when legal things get you a DQ.


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    JudoSensei

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by JudoSensei on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:32 am

    I never know what a referee will call, but I always teach my students to take down the opponent when applying a choke. Starting a choke while standing is fine, but it is better finished on the ground for control, effectiveness, and safety. When I say take down, I don't mean throw, but applying the choke and bringing uke to the ground should be part of one action, IMHO. Regardless of whether or not you can throw while choking, your opponent can certainly throw you, and with your hands tied up it may be easier for them than for you. I really don't know why you would want to try to complete a choke while remaining standing.


    tafftaz

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:34 am

    That sand image is awesome by the way.

    PointyShinyBurning

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by PointyShinyBurning on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:59 am

    genetic judoka wrote:
    a PERFECTLY applied collar choke can put someone to sleep in under a second. I know this, because it was demonstrated on me, and I was asleep before I realized the demonstration had started. however the definition of PERFECTLY applied is a very specific one. all factors must be perfectly in place. any small deviation will buy uke a tiny bit of time.
    That depends when you start the clock. If you sink all your grips while he lets you do it and start tightening at "GO" then, yes, it can happen, though not consistently even then. If you start the clock as soon as it's apparent I'm trying to choke him, against a live opponent, then no, you couldn't do it to a child and standing chokes are functionally not legal. Show me a video where someone gets all their grips ands puts the guy out that fast.

    Anyway, derail, what the rule actually says is, matte should be called "When a contestant performs or attempts to perform Kansetsu-waza or Shime-waza from the standing position and the result is not sufficiently apparent." Which is vaguer still. Though reading it as if it was English suggests to me that if the guy turns red and start making a gurgling noise you can keep going.

    Neil G

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by Neil G on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:15 am

    PointyShinyBurning wrote:Anyway, derail, what the rule actually says is, matte should be called "When a contestant performs or attempts to perform Kansetsu-waza or Shime-waza from the standing position and the result is not sufficiently apparent." Which is vaguer still. Though reading it as if it was English suggests to me that if the guy turns red and start making a gurgling noise you can keep going.
    I have always interpreted that to mean that you make your best judgement as to whether the technique can be completed or not. Is uke not tapping yet because the technique is poorly applied or blocked, or is he just tougher/dumber than the average bear and will be tapping or sleeping soon?

    genetic judoka

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by genetic judoka on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:57 am

    if your choke leads to someone making a gurgling noise, it's a pretty good sign the choke doesn't fall into the 'perfect' category. it's not one of those perfect world scenarios to say that a perfect (or even a 'good' or even an 'acceptable') choke should put absolutely zero pressure on the larynx, and should be entirely pain free for uke. that's not a lofty goal, it's the norm when you put in the time needed to develop proper shime waza technique.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:55 am

    With regard to the last few comments, as you know the IJF itself has undermined the principle of its own definitions by not freely letting newaza or katame-waza go on. Most proficient newaza specialists (or BJJ-ers for that matter) know very well that you have to search for openings, and that overall the pace of newaza is slower than that of tachi-waza. Newaza under IJF rules has been emptied as a concept and evolved towards being understood as merely katame-waza.

    As referees, no doubt, there are situations we hate. Matte has always been away to avoid things we hate. Why do referees avoid situations they hate:

    1. because it is not fun to goof and cause the wrong person to win due to your own mistake.
    2. because referees just like many jûdôka who are obsessed by dan-rank, are obsessed by getting referee promotions.
    3. because you may be evaluated during the contest, which adds to the stress factor and you do not like being humiliated in front of the other referees by a more senior referee.

    In the 1970s, stepping out of the red border when not in action or when interpreted as running away from the fight or even when stepping out to attack was keikoku. During the 1978 Helsinki European Championships Van De Walle lost his contest even though he had a scoreboard full in his favor, because he performen te-guruma and meanwhile supported himself by placing a hand on the tatami outside of the red border: result keikoku and loss.

    In the 1981 Maastricht World Championships facing Khubuluri he was leading and on the road to his first world title. Then he attacked with tomoe-nage, a real attack. Because more than half of his body was outside of the red border, it was consider 'out' and the referee interpreted it as "running away", which it was not, result: keikoku. Try to catch up when you're keikoku behind against a top-elite fighter in such a contest. Result he lost the gold to Khubuluri.

    The incident grew to proportions nearly as big as the Shinohara/Douillet cock-up. So what do you think the effect of that was on referees ? No one as a ref. wanted to end up in such a situation, thus we increasingly started calling matte when we things started getting tricky. The IJF then changed the rules to stepping outside of the border being penalized only with chûi rather than keikoku, but still considerable because if you got a no-activity warning, you were close to be behind with keikoku again. Initially insufficient activity got you a warning before it was changed to direct shidô.

    There are various similar situatios which refs dread, and under the current IJF rules, well ... you know.

    The "apparent result" is something you learn with experience but not always so easy to express in words. During my first jûji-gatame injury, the following happened. My opponent during the final of the nationals caught me in jûji-gatame. No doubt that the armbar was effective, but I refused to tap out. Yes, we were idiots, but that is how it was. I would not be humiliated in front of the entire audience by having to tap out. If I tapped out, it was my fault I lost the fight, and I could not say I would have given it all, and moreover, I remembered all I had to do to get there. There are pictures still where you can see the ref with his arm already still bent but lifted to call ippon, but it did not come. Slowly I was able to get on to my knees, and finally stand up with my opponent still hanging on my arm, the armbar being effective, but my opponent being unable to dislocate it (: the only 'result' that is meant when in the definition of 'apparent result'). So yes I ended up with seriously torn tendons and excruciating pain and had to finish the match on one arm, and in the end lost the match nevertheless. The issue nevertheless is the "apparent result". The referee acted correctly and finally had to call matte since my opponent was not able to break or dislocate the arm, and I was not prepared to tap out. Simply calling ippon would have been a wrong decision there at that level. The point is that with regard to the immediacy of the result considerable time lapsed, but if when I was already standing up and just before I lifted the opponent off the ground he would have succeeded to dislocate my arm or I would have tapped out, it no doubt would have been ippon. The ref. was also correct to let the armbar go on that long. Obviously I would have been a lot happier and healthier if he hadn't, but in that case my opponent would have been unfairly treated.

    Indeed, shime-waza usually is simpler, but not always. I mean usually, because we don't have an extra bypass that provides our brain with oxygen while we are being choked, but there are occcasions such as jûji-jime from behind the neck but with tori holding on to his lapels with the fingers. Essentially, tori may be doing everything correct, but the choke is in limbo and cannot force uke to tap out. In that case, matte is proper. After all, "apparent result" is not really merely applying a choke that technically looks like a textbook example, but "apparent result" refers to choking with the objective of choking, namely achieving unconsciousness" being imminent. However, even then it is possible to come up with scenarios where matte might be wrong, such as when renraku-waza is applied from one shime-waza into another or in to another katame-waza, or the shime-waza which is not effective being applied while osae-komi is also being applied meanwhile applying both, or uke who is lying in osae-komi applying the shime-waza while tori is holding him in osae-komi. So yes, complicated scenarios can occur, and it is understandable why refs. may want to avoid these, even though at one point the IJF strongly reminded us to not (or no longer) call matte just because a situation was at risk of something ... Then again, the IJF had easy speaking since they were not being evaluated or were not looking for a ref. promotion. It is for the same reason that those in charge are typically in a far more comfortable situation when it comes to this than the rest. That probably too contributes to so much of the mess we have.


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    PointyShinyBurning

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by PointyShinyBurning on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:44 am

    genetic judoka wrote:if your choke leads to someone making a gurgling noise, it's a pretty good sign the choke doesn't fall into the 'perfect' category. it's not one of those perfect world scenarios to say that a perfect (or even a 'good' or even an 'acceptable') choke should put absolutely zero pressure on the larynx, and should be entirely pain free for uke. that's not a lofty goal, it's the norm when you put in the time needed to develop proper shime waza technique.
    I didn't say that gurgling meant your choke was perfectly applied, I was picking examples of things that indicate your opponent is getting choked that might constitute a "sufficiently apparent" "result" but aren't uke dropping lifeless to the mat like a rag doll.

    genetic judoka

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:20 am

    PointyShinyBurning wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:if your choke leads to someone making a gurgling noise, it's a pretty good sign the choke doesn't fall into the 'perfect' category. it's not one of those perfect world scenarios to say that a perfect (or even a 'good' or even an 'acceptable') choke should put absolutely zero pressure on the larynx, and should be entirely pain free for uke. that's not a lofty goal, it's the norm when you put in the time needed to develop proper shime waza technique.
    I didn't say that gurgling meant your choke was perfectly applied, I was picking examples of things that indicate your opponent is getting choked that might constitute a "sufficiently apparent" "result" but aren't uke dropping lifeless to the mat like a rag doll.
    fair enough. I was merely stating that a choke in which uke is gurgling is unlikely to be a choke that is immediately effective.


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    PointyShinyBurning

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by PointyShinyBurning on Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:02 am

    genetic judoka wrote:
    fair enough. I was merely stating that a choke in which uke is gurgling is unlikely to be a choke that is immediately effective.
    But it might be one whose result is sufficiently apparent! Well, unless we're using the language in some logical fashion, in which case "having sufficient x" is a circular rule definition which can't be meaningfully evaluated.

    Heisenberg

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by Heisenberg on Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:03 pm

    genetic judoka wrote:

    now a fun thing to consider are the new rules about taking a cross grip and having to attack with a throw immediately...

    Just yesterday I was Shido'd for this in Orlando. I went in for Gyaku juji jime from standing. I fumbled it for a second getting the lapels gripped, started to set the choke, and "Matte, shido! for holding a cross grip without immediately attacking. The grip was the attack! Another second he'd have been sleeping.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:28 pm

    Heisenberg wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:

    now a fun thing to consider are the new rules about taking a cross grip and having to attack with a throw immediately...

    Just yesterday I was Shido'd for this in Orlando. I went in for Gyaku juji jime from standing. I fumbled it for a second getting the lapels gripped, started to set the choke, and "Matte, shido! for holding a cross grip without immediately attacking. The grip was the attack! Another second he'd have been sleeping.

    Isn't judo just a wonderful sport ? Gets even greater when you throw your opponent flat on his back and the ref. awards ippon to the other one. Nothing is crazy enough in judo !


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    BillC

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    Re: Standing choke and throw

    Post by BillC on Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:31 pm

    Heisenberg wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:

    now a fun thing to consider are the new rules about taking a cross grip and having to attack with a throw immediately...

    Just yesterday I was Shido'd for this in Orlando. I went in for Gyaku juji jime from standing. I fumbled it for a second getting the lapels gripped, started to set the choke, and "Matte, shido! for holding a cross grip without immediately attacking. The grip was the attack! Another second he'd have been sleeping.

    In theory ... you really didn't have to let go ...

    ... I am waiting for teguruma and kataguruma onto the scorer's table.

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