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    Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

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    Ouch_that_hurts

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    Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Ouch_that_hurts on Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:44 am

    I stumbled upon this website today and was kind of taken back by the strong stance this guy makes when it comes to bowing.. he basically equates the requirement to jews being persecuted... Anyway what are peoples thoughts on this guy?

    http://www.judochampions.com/bowing

    PS sorry of this was posted on the old forum.


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    Neil G

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Neil G on Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:50 am

    Ouch_that_hurts wrote:Anyway what are peoples thoughts on this guy?
    He's a tool. If I had my way, I'd get rid of the handshake that is customary these days. I hate sloppy reiho.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:55 am

    Ouch_that_hurts wrote:I stumbled upon this website today and was kind of taken back by the strong stance this guy makes when it comes to bowing.. he basically equates the requirement to jews being persecuted... Anyway what are peoples thoughts on this guy?

    http://www.judochampions.com/bowing

    PS sorry of this was posted on the old forum.

    I don't see how this merits any more discussion. It's old news, there was a huge lawsuit involving USA Judo et al. You can dig into if you have the gumption. There are topics over on the old judo forum about them/it/him. The lawsuit was finally settle/adjudicated ( I can't remember which).



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    Ouch_that_hurts

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Ouch_that_hurts on Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:03 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Ouch_that_hurts wrote:I stumbled
    PS sorry of this was posted on the old forum.

    I don't see how this merits any more discussion. It's old news, there was a huge lawsuit involving USA Judo et al. You can dig into if you have the gumption. There are topics over on the old judo forum about them/it/him. The lawsuit was finally settle/adjudicated ( I can't remember which).

    Ergo the "Sorry if this was posted before".... anyways I was interested in people's thoughts more around the anti-traditional stance/judo is a sport, blah blah blah....


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    NBK

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by NBK on Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:35 am

    Judo is not a cult.

    This has been hashed through a lot. I don't know about 'the guy' but someone made a mishmash of a lot of history and culture.

    Bowing per se is not a Shinto ritual. Bowing as part of Japanese culture is included in Shinto ritual. You'll see bowing in many religions and certain cultures - it would be good not to confuse the two.

    As far as blessing the car, I'd look at Catholic priests in Latin America - they do that all the time. Fishing boats, new stores, babies, you name it.

    It seems to me the Bible quotes are taken out of context, but it is worth looking at them:

    Deuteronomy 4.19 "And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them..."

    Exodus 20.4-5 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them..."

    The 'bowing' refers to worship, and the context is worshiping false idols. Bowing in judo is not part of a worship ceremony - there is no intent to worship. Conflating the two is simply misunderstanding both Japanese culture and the intent of the Bible passages, it seems to me.

    Idol - An idol is an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed or any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion.
    - Wiki (emphasis added)

    I like the Miss Manners bit at the link above, but again, Japanese culture is different. Some years ago, I was very surprised to chance upon the Empress. I clumsily half bowed to her, but at the same time raised my right hand and sort of wiggled my fingers in a dumb sort of wave while still watching her (I did not expect anything like that and was surprised and embarrassed - shikata ga nai....) Embarassed

    She bowed in return, correctly and politely looking down (in fact, bowing more deeply than I) but also raised her hand to give a little wave back to me with a faint smile. Nice lady.

    A common courtesy we exchanged on the street. Not an obeisance. If we were seated in seizai, the formal seated position, we would have exchanged seated bows and not thought anything of it, either.

    And I believe that some folks complain about this without realizing what goes on in their own culture. Watch the body language of handshakes in America and the arcane signs of who is senior / superior / etc. Watch some pol like Bill Clinton work a crowd versus work someone he needs. The two handed grip, the slap on the back, a perfunctory grip while ignoring someone inferior, etc. There is a lot more positioning, gaming and posturing than most people ever realize. But you can immediately recognize it from a distance too far to make out individual faces.

    A polite mutual bow is much more equal than a false handshake, I think, after decades of doing both.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:38 am

    In addition to what NBK has stated I point out that the issue has also been addressed by a number of scholars:

    http://corpsetculture.revues.org/564 (sorry, this one is in French, but you can use Google Translate).

    Also, Mr. Murata Naoki, curator of the Kôdôkan museum has addressed the issue at the International Budô Culture Symposium in Kagoshima, I believe in 2008, but I only have the article in Japanese. Additionally, colleague Professor David Matsumoto also gave a lecture about the topic. I have his in both English and Japanese and am attaching the English version for your interest:





    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:57 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Ouch_that_hurts

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Ouch_that_hurts on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:49 am

    HAHA Matsumoto sensei already has an article about this... HA! Ill have to ask him about it...thanks for the info!


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:57 am

    Ouch_that_hurts wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Ouch_that_hurts wrote:I stumbled
    PS sorry of this was posted on the old forum.

    I don't see how this merits any more discussion. It's old news, there was a huge lawsuit involving USA Judo et al. You can dig into if you have the gumption. There are topics over on the old judo forum about them/it/him. The lawsuit was finally settle/adjudicated ( I can't remember which).

    Ergo the "Sorry if this was posted before".... anyways I was interested in people's thoughts more around the anti-traditional stance/judo is a sport, blah blah blah....

    By all means carry on, my opinion is only that.
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    Michael-H

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Michael-H on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:20 am

    As many say, this is not really an interesting discussion. It is nothing new that religions try to limit their adherents from doing stuff, or joining other activities. It is part of their reason for being. However, the bow is a ubiquitous sign of courtesy in almost all cultures. You bow to the lady when you ask her to dance, you bow again to thank her. You bow to your betters (in countries where they exist), and generally they bow in return. As the author writes, bowing is an integral part of: Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Shinto and many other religions precisely because it is such a clear sign of courtesy and humility. I get the feeling that it is the latter that scares our author. He believes humility lessens and weakens you.

    You can of course refuse to bow at anything but your chosen deity, but that does not mean that you would be considered properly courteous if you were not to bow at a formal dance. Of course, if you believe your faith prohibits you from bowing at judo, it probably prohibits you from dancing as well.
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Ricebale on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:38 am

    This dude would really struggle with sumo, the shinto rituals etc
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    Q mystic

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Q mystic on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:46 am

    Absolute perfect timing Ouch That Hurts and I appreciate the responses. A couple of weeks ago I brought a good friend who is Christian to the judo club. He and a couple of his friends are interested in judo but they did a near 180 when the bow seemed important. Buddy came anyway and says he didnt bow when others did and said he enjoyed the class but not the bowing.

    I assure you that he isnt a Christian that is extreme in anyway except that when you get him to try certain things.lol He's the compassion supercedes everything type, but not the bowing.lol

    I will send him this thread.

    Appreciated.

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    Ouch_that_hurts

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Ouch_that_hurts on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:59 am

    Q mystic wrote:Absolute perfect timing Ouch That Hurts and I appreciate the responses. A couple of weeks ago I brought a good friend who is Christian to the judo club. He and a couple of his friends are interested in judo but they did a near 180 when the bow seemed important. Buddy came anyway and says he didnt bow when others did and said he enjoyed the class but not the bowing.

    I assure you that he isnt a Christian that is extreme in anyway except that when you get him to try certain things.lol He's the compassion supercedes everything type, but not the bowing.lol

    I will send him this thread.

    Appreciated.

    Ha no problem! Glad I could help... I am very "secular" (I wont get into labels here) but its just hard for me to understand the issue... ergo asking the community at large! Smile


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    Q mystic

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Q mystic on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:07 am

    Ouch_that_hurts wrote:
    Q mystic wrote:Absolute perfect timing Ouch That Hurts and I appreciate the responses. A couple of weeks ago I brought a good friend who is Christian to the judo club. He and a couple of his friends are interested in judo but they did a near 180 when the bow seemed important. Buddy came anyway and says he didnt bow when others did and said he enjoyed the class but not the bowing.

    I assure you that he isnt a Christian that is extreme in anyway except that when you get him to try certain things.lol He's the compassion supercedes everything type, but not the bowing.lol

    I will send him this thread.

    Appreciated.

    Ha no problem! Glad I could help... I am very "secular" (I wont get into labels here) but its just hard for me to understand the issue... ergo asking the community at large! Smile

    I hear you. He's a decent guy who's 27 with heavy but decent christian upbringing and after 27 years I can kinda see his veiwpoint, if he didn't read more about it. I could only tell him it was pretty convincing that it wasn't about worship. I was going to look it up on judoforum but havent got around to it and you guys made a nice concise thread here I think. Thanks.

    Of course, his version of 'bow' might supercede the norm so I might just keep on burying him until I'm 70.lol He isnt going to get a chip of numbers put in his arm either.lol

    Gus

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Gus on Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:31 am

    I don't have a problem with bowing - I don't mind if it has religious origins.

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Guest on Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:42 am

    I worship my sensei.
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    judoratt

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by judoratt on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:34 pm

    John Holmes is in my back yard I know him well he is exactly what he sounds like a goof ball, the dojo looks like a garage sale. That being said I talk to him every time I see him and kind of like the guy. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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    judoratt

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by judoratt on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:35 pm

    Dave R. wrote:I worship my sensei.

    Am I your Sensei?? Shocked Shocked

    Judoinmotion

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Judoinmotion on Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:26 am

    I quite often, in particular at the beginning of the kids classes when parents are present, I briefly go over of some facts and terms using in Judo and to avoid confusion and misunderstanding, I explain that we bow in Judo to show respect to each other. I keep it short and simple. I don't have a Kano's picture on my wall.
    Yes, I had some people asking me if this bowing thing has religion connection from time to time.

    jkw

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by jkw on Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:43 am

    judoratt wrote:John Holmes is in my back yard I know him well he is exactly what he sounds like a goof ball, the dojo looks like a garage sale. That being said I talk to him every time I see him and kind of like the guy. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

    One of my favourite things about judo is meeting likable goofballs.
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    judoratt

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by judoratt on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:20 pm

    [quote="jkw"]
    judoratt wrote:John Holmes is in my back yard I know him well he is exactly what he sounds like a goof ball, the dojo looks like a garage sale. That being said I talk to him every time I see him and kind of like the guy. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

    One of my favourite things about judo is meeting likable goofballs.[quote]

    If you can put up with me, I could fill that criteria. Smile Smile
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    contrarian

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by contrarian on Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:07 pm

    how about bowing to picture of Kano?
    i was looking this up today, and that's how i discovered that the old JF is no more.

    i am presuming, people started doing this after he passed away.
    how did people start their training before Kano passed away?
    and must we bow to Kano now, before and after class?
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    judoratt

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by judoratt on Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:32 pm

    contrarian wrote:how about bowing to picture of Kano?
    i was looking this up today, and that's how i discovered that the old JF is no more.

    i am presuming, people started doing this after he passed away.
    how did people start their training before Kano passed away?
    and must we bow to Kano now, before and after class?

    There is no rule that says you need to bow to Kano. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

    Old Chestnut

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Old Chestnut on Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:03 pm

    A more pertinent question would be how Kano bowed to himself? A mirror hastily deployed whenever he attended training?

    Hanon

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Hanon on Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:39 pm

    Michael-H wrote:As many say, this is not really an interesting discussion. It is nothing new that religions try to limit their adherents from doing stuff, or joining other activities. It is part of their reason for being. However, the bow is a ubiquitous sign of courtesy in almost all cultures. You bow to the lady when you ask her to dance, you bow again to thank her. You bow to your betters (in countries where they exist), and generally they bow in return. As the author writes, bowing is an integral part of: Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Shinto and many other religions precisely because it is such a clear sign of courtesy and humility. I get the feeling that it is the latter that scares our author. He believes humility lessens and weakens you.

    You can of course refuse to bow at anything but your chosen deity, but that does not mean that you would be considered properly courteous if you were not to bow at a formal dance. Of course, if you believe your faith prohibits you from bowing at judo, it probably prohibits you from dancing as well.

    Not to mention throwing people around the floor, arm locking them, strangling them and punching and kicking a persons vital points etc, and all this while wearing pyjamas! Sounds awful to me.

    There will always be those who deliberately twist the decent honest open good intentions of mankind to make of them some thing they are not. The question should be what is THEIR agenda not what is ours.

    Rei, Twisted Evil

    Mike


    Last edited by Hanon on Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:52 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Wandering WB

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Wandering WB on Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:07 am

    judoratt
    There is no rule that says you need to bow to Kano.
    So, in other words, you would not bow to the portrait of Kano in a Japanese dojo? I wonder how long you would last there.
    Just kidding, or, maybe not...

    In general, though... Bowing does make less of you and the people who expect you to bow know this. Nobody is naturally as humble as some sensei expect you to be. So generally, while it is probably a good idea to follow the etiquette when there is no choice, if someone has to bow it is probably better to have others bow to you more deeply. Next time somebody you dislike asks you to bow, just nod your head. Then, if they show their true face (or their tail, rather...) and decide they want to fight over this, be prepared.

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