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    Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

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    Hanon

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Hanon on Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:57 am

    Wandering WB wrote:judoratt
    There is no rule that says you need to bow to Kano.
    So, in other words, you would not bow to the portrait of Kano in a Japanese dojo? I wonder how long you would last there.
    Just kidding, or, maybe not...

    In general, though... Bowing does make less of you and the people who expect you to bow know this. Nobody is naturally as humble as some sensei expect you to be. So generally, while it is probably a good idea to follow the etiquette when there is no choice, if someone has to bow it is probably better to have others bow to you more deeply. Next time somebody you dislike asks you to bow, just nod your head. Then, if they show their true face (or their tail, rather...) and decide they want to fight over this, be prepared.

    Do you fish by any chance? If you do, do you ever catch anything? Cool

    Mike


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    contrarian

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by contrarian on Wed May 01, 2013 3:07 am

    judoratt wrote:
    contrarian wrote:how about bowing to picture of Kano?
    i was looking this up today, and that's how i discovered that the old JF is no more.

    i am presuming, people started doing this after he passed away.
    how did people start their training before Kano passed away?
    and must we bow to Kano now, before and after class?

    There is no rule that says you need to bow to Kano. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

    there's no rule that says one must shakes hands with another when introduced at a gathering. maybe things work differently where you live, but there exists this thing called etiquette that tends to follow most of humanity when we gather.
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    Stacey

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Stacey on Wed May 01, 2013 5:44 am

    meh, I just start class by saying, "on your bellies, you miserable worms!!!!!!!"













    and then they do push-ups because, hey, I like push-ups.
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    Stacey

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Stacey on Wed May 01, 2013 5:47 am

    Ricebale wrote:This dude would really struggle with sumo, the shinto rituals etc

    and thai boxing and anything else where there's a religious underpinning, or where a religious "meaning" can be attributed to an action, like the salute in fencing, or the high five in MMA and BJJ.

    I wonder if the anti bowing crowd can swim competitively - that grab start looks a lot like bowing
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    BillC

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by BillC on Wed May 01, 2013 8:13 am

    Stacey wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:This dude would really struggle with sumo, the shinto rituals etc

    and thai boxing and anything else where there's a religious underpinning, or where a religious "meaning" can be attributed to an action, like the salute in fencing, or the high five in MMA and BJJ.

    I wonder if the anti bowing crowd can swim competitively - that grab start looks a lot like bowing

    Worse ... I always got a little bit red-faced when standing in the timer's spot.

    Wandering WB

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Wandering WB on Thu May 02, 2013 10:57 am

    Hanon
    Do you fish by any chance? If you do, do you ever catch anything?

    Mike
    Hm, no, I don't fish, but if you wanna talk about fishing, make a separate thread. I'm sure you can find some enthusiasts of fishing on these forums. This thread is about bowing.
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    Q mystic

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Q mystic on Thu May 02, 2013 11:16 am

    Wandering WB wrote:judoratt
    There is no rule that says you need to bow to Kano.

    In general, though... Bowing does make less of you and the people who expect you to bow know this.

    How does bowing make less of you? Do you mean as in, 'nice guys finish last'? Or that you are being submissive?
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    Ouch_that_hurts

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Ouch_that_hurts on Thu May 02, 2013 1:44 pm

    HAHA we are still talking about this! I thought it was "already covered" in the old forum? Guess I should come around more often! Twisted Evil


    And getting back to the original point.. the person in question seems to be a "somewhat" close minded and mildly xenophobic person, ironically studying judo... That being said (and playing the devils advocate) can "judo" exist as a sport without the Japanese cultural influence and still maintain the philosophy etc... "wrestling in pjs and some added philosophy thrown in" .... my personal thought is no, but what does everyone else think? ........



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    Wandering WB

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Wandering WB on Thu May 02, 2013 2:51 pm

    QMystic
    How does bowing make less of you? Do you mean as in, 'nice guys finish last'? Or that you are being submissive?
    Well, I propose you do an experiment. If you work at a place where people shake hands to greet each other, bow to everybody from the waist instead. You can tell us about your experience at the end of a week of this. If someone seriously claims that there is nothing wrong with bowing - hey, I'm a humble guy, I'm not gonna argue. I just think that then they should bow to me. Now you might point out that they may expect me to bow back - well ok, so long as they bow deeper. Preferably twice as deep. Nothing wrong with that, right?

    That's about all I wanted to say.
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Ricebale on Thu May 02, 2013 3:38 pm

    ^handshakes have similar connotations depending how you give and recieve them, you learn this as part of life
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    finarashi

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by finarashi on Thu May 02, 2013 4:53 pm

    Due to my personal religious beliefs I can not greet anybody, acknowledge their presence in any way and must speak condensendly to all of you. If it can be understood that my speech refers to other persons (especially referees) it will be accompanied by "You j..s" or similar expression showing utter contempt. In addition I can not be thrown and given any hint the Fellow Judoka must throw themselves in the most realistic way possible.

    In the name of religious freedom I demand that this be allowed in Judo practices, shiai and other daily encounters without any negative impact to outcome of shiai or my relations with fellow Judoka.

    Any Judoka who does not adhere to this must be publicly condemned of bigotry and thrown out of Judo.


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    Wandering WB

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Wandering WB on Fri May 03, 2013 7:07 am

    ^finarashi
    I don't know how much of that is a self-parody and how much merely a joke.
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    seatea

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by seatea on Sat May 04, 2013 1:40 am

    Wandering WB wrote:^finarashi
    I don't know how much of that is a self-parody and how much merely a joke.

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    Neil G

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Neil G on Sat May 04, 2013 2:33 am

    Wandering WB wrote:QMystic
    How does bowing make less of you? Do you mean as in, 'nice guys finish last'? Or that you are being submissive?
    Well, I propose you do an experiment. If you work at a place where people shake hands to greet each other, bow to everybody from the waist instead. You can tell us about your experience at the end of a week of this. If someone seriously claims that there is nothing wrong with bowing - hey, I'm a humble guy, I'm not gonna argue. I just think that then they should bow to me. Now you might point out that they may expect me to bow back - well ok, so long as they bow deeper. Preferably twice as deep. Nothing wrong with that, right?

    That's about all I wanted to say.
    Well if you want to be an a-hole about it, then nobody can stop you. But most of us bow to each other in the spirit intended.
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    finarashi

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by finarashi on Sat May 04, 2013 4:48 am

    seatea wrote:


    OK you win!


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    rjohnston411

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by rjohnston411 on Sat May 04, 2013 6:00 am

    Everybody: Stop being so damn pissy.
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    Q mystic

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    Re: Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

    Post by Q mystic on Sat May 04, 2013 6:59 am

    Wandering WB wrote:QMystic
    How does bowing make less of you? Do you mean as in, 'nice guys finish last'? Or that you are being submissive?
    If someone seriously claims that there is nothing wrong with bowing - hey, I'm a humble guy, I'm not gonna argue. I just think that then they should bow to me. Now you might point out that they may expect me to bow back - well ok, so long as they bow deeper. Preferably twice as deep. Nothing wrong with that, right?

    Nope, nothing wrong with that, imo. I don't think people generally care how exact you bow, or handshake, within reason. Truth tho, if Hidehiko Yoshida came to my judo club, I'd bow pretty good to him. Sadly, this isn't consistant among everyone(and maybe it shouldn't be). But, regardless, I do bow pretty deep and my handshake is quite puny, even to noobs. Nerves or carelessness I think, but I like to consider it 'so they won't see me coming' just so that I don't have to work on them.lol

    I just don't believe actual results come from this outside of it just being a way of saying happy to be here.

    I used to do a 45 degree bow in wrestling.lol Not so much it looked corny but enuff that they'd ask where I got them throws.lol

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