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    Proper hand placement for Tsuri-Komi-Goshi?

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    OldeEnglishD

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    Proper hand placement for Tsuri-Komi-Goshi?

    Post by OldeEnglishD on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:26 am

    Hi all,

    For Tsuri-Komi-Goshi if you have your left hand gripping the right sleeve of your opponent, where do you prefer your right hand grip be? Lapel? I have found that if I can get a double sleeve grip the throw seems to work better. Has anyone else found this to be true? I will look for some videos of both methods if I can find them.

    OldeEnglishD

    Posts : 94
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Michigan

    Re: Proper hand placement for Tsuri-Komi-Goshi?

    Post by OldeEnglishD on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:34 am

    Found a video but unable to post as I am a new member here (aren't we all). On youtube if you type in Tsurikomi-goshi instruction the first video that comes up shows both techniques I described.


    Rob GBR

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    Re: Proper hand placement for Tsuri-Komi-Goshi?

    Post by Rob GBR on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:34 am

    i tend to favor tsuri komi goshi if i can get a double sleeve grip on my opponent in competition, (won my first grading fight with this one^^)

    but to answer your question when i'm practicing the technique i tend to use the lapel and use the "standard kuzushi" fist up, elbow into the middle of the chest...


    Taiobroshi

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    Re: Proper hand placement for Tsuri-Komi-Goshi?

    Post by Taiobroshi on Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:37 am

    So you're asking if we prefer sode tsuri komi goshi or tsuri komi goshi? Sode comes about when you're winning the grip fighting game, so once you have that grip it throws more often (in my opinion). The leverage you have controlling both sleeves is "better" for these these principles. Honestly, I only practice tsuri komi goshi as a way to improve other waza that also use the grip, so I've never actually attempted to score using it. Sode on the other hand...

    OldeEnglishD

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    Re: Proper hand placement for Tsuri-Komi-Goshi?

    Post by OldeEnglishD on Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:25 am

    Taiobroshi wrote:So you're asking if we prefer sode tsuri komi goshi or tsuri komi goshi? Sode comes about when you're winning the grip fighting game, so once you have that grip it throws more often (in my opinion). The leverage you have controlling both sleeves is "better" for these these principles. Honestly, I only practice tsuri komi goshi as a way to improve other waza that also use the grip, so I've never actually attempted to score using it. Sode on the other hand...

    You are correct, that was the question I meant to ask (poorly worded, my appologies). I prefer Sode as well, I find it a more natural feel for me.

    judoratt

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    Re: Proper hand placement for Tsuri-Komi-Goshi?

    Post by judoratt on Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:54 am

    When teaching sode from a right hand grip, left hand on ukes sleeve. I keep the right hand on the lapel, with the thumb still inside the lapel I reach the fingers towards the armpit regrip to controll more of ukes shoulder for the throw. This is a nice subtle regrip that uke rarely picks up on but gives you much better control of the shoulder/upper body during the throw.

    heikojr

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    Re: Proper hand placement for Tsuri-Komi-Goshi?

    Post by heikojr on Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:06 pm

    Alot of people try to do tsuri-komi-goshi with a high grip collar grip. I like to practice with the grip about chest level on the lapel and when you squat down and under uke put your butt almost to the floor. Let uke's jacket come right out of the belt (actually, i usually get the grip and pull the jacket out before the attempt!). This will give you more space for your arm (which will take up the slack of the gi) and better lift. This type of grip can also help with morote-seionage.

    And yes, i am in the club that likes sode-tsuri-komi-goshi better, too!

    heikojr

    Hanon

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    Re: Proper hand placement for Tsuri-Komi-Goshi?

    Post by Hanon on Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:25 am

    OldeEnglishD wrote:Hi all,

    For Tsuri-Komi-Goshi if you have your left hand gripping the right sleeve of your opponent, where do you prefer your right hand grip be? Lapel? I have found that if I can get a double sleeve grip the throw seems to work better. Has anyone else found this to be true? I will look for some videos of both methods if I can find them.

    Hiya,

    This is not a simple question, few questions are lol.

    There is the definitive gokyo waza (Kodokan) that is with little variation rather written in stone. There are then adaptions on a theme or henka waza. Further to this some famous dojo like Tenri had a very distinctive 'style' of grip, the collar grip was high and would almost knock you out with a punching style of attack against ones jaw. Tokai also had a certain manner of fighting as did many of the police and private honbu dojo in Japan.

    Both my sensei taught ogoshi holding around the neck not the waste as the canonical style of kodokan judo. They where both Busen staff and teachers at the pre WW11 DNBK.

    For exams and in learning it is often of value to learn a classic , hon, manner there are valuable reasons for this. After time one will develop ones own style even style on the style of a given dojo!
    The thing to maintain is efficiency and preservation of energy while achieving maximum efficiency. I have some very very unorthodox grips for my o soto gari, more, I have numerous grips for numerous occasions.

    In the waza in question it is wise to look at what the hands, hips and feet do. An awful lot of information regarding this waza is given in the name. Tsuri....Komi...Goshi. We know from the koshi reference that this is a koshi waza not a te or ashi waza so an awful lot of emphasis needs to be placed on the action and location of the hips. If we then take into consideration the tsuri and komi components we can see we are 'fishing' so need to get our trunk out of the way or we will fail due to the fact we will be making that trsuri komi action against our own body. To prevent this we need to drop our COG so our hips, as Heikojr has written, are as low as possible at least coming into contact with the lower thighs of uke.

    Now to slightly complicate things (and why not, lol) you have described 'sode' as the manner of achieving the tsuri komi. Again one canonical manner (sode is not truly a separate waza but a henka of the basic waza, however) yet numerous henka and this is exactly as it should be. So I am unsure if your question has a single answer... Your judo, after learning the basics, should be unique to you and change according to who you are fighting and even your mood on the day.

    Exams where the go kyo are requested is a different subject altogether.

    I hope I have not confused you too much. Judo is by nature, rather complex.

    Regards,

    Mike

    I suggest you simply enjoy randori and try as many grips and entries as you can think of.

    genetic judoka

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    Re: Proper hand placement for Tsuri-Komi-Goshi?

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:05 am

    I like sode tsurikomi goshi a lot. it had become one of my new flavor of the month throws shortly before taking a vacation from judo to get married. I love the throw. I actually use it a lot against people way shorter than myself, just because it's something they rarely expect from someone as tall as myself.

    when doing this throw I really have no concern whatsoever for the location of my other hand. if I have a grip with my left hand on uke's right sleeve I can do STKG with no grip at all with my right hand. it won't necessarily be pretty but it can be done fairly easily. if I have a double sleeve grip the throw is easy as pie, but I don't often get a double sleeve grip, and I'm not likely to let go with my lapel hand to go for the sleeve. the time it takes to do that can be all that's necessary for the opening for STKG to disappear. so my answer is, wherever the heck my hand happens to be at the moment.

    now a loosely related question: what is your preference for the location of your left elbow (assuming the throw is being done with your left hand on uke's right sleeve)? by that I mean outside or inside. some like their elbow to go under uke's arm because it aides in faster rotation, I prefer my elbow to go over uke's arm, because it causes my movement to have a greater effect on uke's posture much sooner. what's your preference?

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Proper hand placement for Tsuri-Komi-Goshi?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:51 am

    heikojr wrote:Alot of people try to do tsuri-komi-goshi with a high grip collar grip. I like to practice with the grip about chest level on the lapel and when you squat down and under uke put your butt almost to the floor. Let uke's jacket come right out of the belt (actually, i usually get the grip and pull the jacket out before the attempt!). This will give you more space for your arm (which will take up the slack of the gi) and better lift. This type of grip can also help with morote-seionage.

    And yes, i am in the club that likes sode-tsuri-komi-goshi better, too!

    heikojr

    I had to chuckle at your description, you must have had some old school judoka teaching you in your history. My first sensei taught the same thing.

    As for squatting with the butt to the ground, that's pretty radical, and not necessary, I'd say it's not even basic technique for TSG.

    The beauty of TSG is that the basic positioning/body action is fundamental and related to a lot of forward throws, and is an excellent bridge to more complex throws like Harai Goshi, Uchi Mata, etc.

    Pulling the jacket out like that gets away form the basic utility of TSG and normal positioning of the tsurite fundamental to so many throws. In terms of competition variations, it's too much slack, gives uke a lot more room to escape/twist out/counter.

    I know you are not advocating butt on ground or yanking out uke jacket, but I just want to clarify for less experienced judoka who might read this without the context of many years of Judo.

    Ben

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