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    And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

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    Cichorei Kano

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    And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:51 pm










    "Judo Show" is an official category on EJU Kata Championships, including its continental kata championships. There are now also "official Judo Show courses" given in several European countries. I assume that this fits well into Vizer's desire to make judo "more spectacular" in the sense that he understands the meaning of "spectacular" when related to judo. It may be interesting to see how judoka from other countries look upon this "kata category", which they likely will be somewhat unfamiliar with.


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    hedgehogey

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by hedgehogey on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:17 pm

    Yay, we're kiddy karate!
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    Davaro

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Davaro on Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:41 pm

    Here it is called "creative kata"

    It is quite popular especially amongst spectators. I suppose the "show" aspect of it makes a change from what some think is "boring" traditional kata.

    Spectators probably (and rightly so) cannot appreciate the traditional katas and all the nuances that go with them. Heck, most "seasoned" judoka are probably in the same position!!!

    The + point to this creative kata is making a show,for people that probably do not know judo, showing off some judo techniques in a fun way??

    Personally, although being fairly traditional myself, I dont have a problem with it. Modern times call for modern thoughts I suppose.


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    Quicksilver

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Quicksilver on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:19 pm

    I am of the opinion that the main mistake one might make upon viewing these is to judge them by the standards and criteria of what they are not- that is, traditional kata or even necessarily 'Judo' in an essential sense, because the primary intent behind them is very different. And as an appropriation of elements of Judo to produce a show, a display of skill and athleticism intended to impress and entertain, I do not think this to be a negative thing in general and regarding the above videos specifically, those in them seem to have done a pretty good job.

    It is interesting, the implications carried by matters such as this and opinions thereon.


    Last edited by Quicksilver on Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:48 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Jonesy

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Jonesy on Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:06 pm

    Ghastly concept to have it included alongside kata - shows that the EJU have absolutely no f***ing clue.

    I have no problem with judo demos being held to attract new people - they have always been done, but part of a kata event - no way.


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    techman

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by techman on Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:14 am

    Well it is certainly different, and I am sure that their will be plenty of people out there who find it entertaining. Will it attract more people to do judo? Well I for one would be unable to explain to someone new why the judo I teach does not remotely resemble this farce, and if they joined my club to learn this dance routine I would send them down the road to the nearby dance studio.
    It's all down to bums on seats, what next Britains got talent!!

    jkw

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by jkw on Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:52 am

    What I'm not looking forward to is having someone assess my 'judo show' skills next time I have to renew my coaching certificate ...

    jkw

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by jkw on Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:56 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:... there are now also "official Judo Show courses" given in several European countries.

    I wonder if this will ever become a legitimate component for gradings? Maybe a bit like "service to judo".
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    NBK

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by NBK on Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:19 pm

    I watch many of the All Japan (fill in the blank) Tournaments that occur in the Nihon Budokan.

    This sort of thing can be a good recruiting tool, it seems to me. A bit of flashy activity and showing you don't take yourself too seriously.

    One of the best I ever saw was a youth aikido group that had a whole series of exercises that they'd link to the simple background music. The start / stop was signaled by a stroke of a massive drum. Most groups, and there were a dozen or more demoning simultaneously, each given 4 minutes or so, for over an hour, but lots of motion to watch and not watch. So groups went from no plan, milling about, to 'sensei beats up on deshi' while everyone sits in seiza, to graba$$, to whatever. But everyone can say they've demonstrated their art in the bigtime, in the Big Mikan.

    By the time this youth bunch showed up, you'd seen about everything, but they were organized, energetic, crisp, skilled, and clearly had the attention of everyone in the place. In fact, even the guy with the drum realized they were close to finish, and held off, and timed the final stroke of the drum to close the session with the ukemi of the final large guy thrown hard by a cute teenaged girl in pigtails.

    The crowd loved it. Any kids would have thought aikido too cool not to at least try. A great recruiting tool.

    I've only seen a couple of judo demos that could even compare. One is that run by Mukai sensei, head of the Kasuga Judo Club, the youth program of the Kodokan. No play, just great techniques demonstrated well.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:02 pm

    A great judo demonstration. It is of course at the Budokan of the Kyoto Budo Centre, and not the Kodokan as labelled on YouTube.



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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:55 am

    Quicksilver wrote:I am of the opinion that the main mistake one might make upon viewing these is to judge them by the standards and criteria of what they are not- that is, traditional kata or even necessarily 'Judo' in an essential sense, because the primary intent behind them is very different. And as an appropriation of elements of Judo to produce a show, a display of skill and athleticism intended to impress and entertain, I do not think this to be a negative thing in general and regarding the above videos specifically, those in them seem to have done a pretty good job.

    It is interesting, the implications carried by matters such as this and opinions thereon.

    Thank you for that thoughtful response. I was toying around with the idea of writing up a scholarly paper on the topic, and it is always useful to bounce off a couple of ideas. Yours is an interesting argument that I am trying to place against the background of judo.

    Bear with me for a second before I come back to your argument.

    Judo evolves. I think that is logical and acceptable. It evolved during Kanô's life and it evolved afterwards. Nothing in Kanô's ideas suggested that jûdô was meant to cease existing with his passing. That would also not be in line with Japanese budô tradition and Japanese thinking. Therefore, Kanô must have been very aware of the idea that judo would continue to evolve.

    Where it gets more obscure is ... that I do not think that this evoluation was supposed to go uncontrolled. There was evolution in jûdô techniques during Kanô's life, techniques that were also developed by others. He accepted that, although whatever was developed needed to be in line with his thinking. For example, he was rather critical of Feldenkrais' manuscript, because clearly what Feldenkrais described seems to have been both conceptually and technically not entirely in line with Kanô's. Kanô seems to have been very critical when people touched kata, although he himself changed kata several times, and the infamous 1906 Butokukai meeting also brouoght changes. It seems that Kanô was more appreciative of the jûjutsu masters present during that meeting than of individuals who separate from him started changing things. Maybe the difference is also that at the 1906 meeting he was an active member during the dicussions. Kanô is known to have reacted rather terse when Koizum in 1932 showed some 'improvements' to jû-no-kata and demonstrated his version. Kanô immediately reacted: "That is an modification of jû-no-kata !" The meaning of that sentence should be interpreted a bit darker than what it wordly is communicating ...

    Kanô never during his life condoned any of the kata Mifune developed, and Mifune arguably was not an incompetent judo idiot. My understanding from Kanô's negative reactions is that he considered the comprehension of his Kôdôkan jûdô by others as deficient, at least conceptually. It didn't matter if you were a superb technician, as that was not what his judo was about. Enough excellent technicians (Saigô Shirô, Yokoyama Sakujirô) actually separated from him.

    It seems that in Kanô's ideas the Kôdôkan would remain the guardian of proper jûdô. That is also logical as there is nothing about an IJF or anything in control of his jûdô. He likely assumed that his best and most faithful pupils (Nagaoka, etc) would fulfill that job. Kanô did not foresee that 75 years later the comprehension of many of his lessons would even be lost among many of those teaching at the Kôdôkan. Oimatsu is long gone, and Daigo is the last one holding some of that knowledge. There is no proper succession foreseen at the Kôdôkan after Daigo. Teaching staff has mostly been trained to memorize mechanical steps, but not the conceptual meaning or historic development and place of kata and kata-like exercises. The relevancy of this statement is that Judo Show was not something condoned by the Kôdôkan and even less by those at the Kôdôkan with the best intrinsic knowledge.

    Furthermore, Kanô emphatically and extensively discussed the necessity of practising both randori and kata. This was obviously not essential to win a certain contest, but it was essential to comprehend jûdô in the way he saw jûdô. Kanô never wrote that it is essential to show or demonstrate kata to others and eventually be evaluated on them. No, he talked about 'practice' of kata. Thus the purpose of kata, no doubt, is to improve YOUR jûdô. A demonstration does not really serve to improve your jûdô; the preceding practice might, but the demonstration itself has as a purpose to exhibit something to a body of spectators. There is no record of kata intended for demonstration before half of the 1890s. It's something that almost haphazardly started to introduce jûdô to others, probably to show it was a valuable alternative to jûjutsu, but also very different (in Kanô's opinion).

    Now that we know that practice of kata was for yourself, not for others, and that doing so was essential, we can derive that each kata added something essential. What it adds and can add is proportional to the level one has and wants to achieve. It is then not illogical that one cannot even begin to understand that material which is far above one's level. A brown belt does not have to be occupied with what precisely itsutsu-no-kata is trying to communicate, but he needs to be concerned about how practice of nage-no-kata improves his randori in terms of responses, kuzushi, debana, action reaction, ma-ai. All the kata established by Kanô as Kôdôkankata,irrespective of whether they were original or imported fulfilled that purpose.

    Within that conceptual view the practice of "judo show" should therefore be essential in addition to randori. If it isn't, then there is an intrinsic problem with regard to the existence of such kata. The second problem is that each kata adds an essential component in Kanô's comprehensive educational view of jûdô kata. I have a fairly good understanding of the sense and role of all kata established by Kanô, and also of the other two Kôdôkan kata established after his death. I do, however, not understand how the "judo show kata" fits in there. What part of jûdô as a broad education does it play an essential role in in achieving that goal ?

    In your explanation you offer such a goal, and I understand that, but I do not find that goal anywhere in Kanô's objectives of jûdô. It is true that in Kanô's personal evolution there was a shift towards the more aesthetic, which probably also explains a certain loss of fighting skill realism, a problem which also over time jûdô's parent schools suffered from. However, the aesthetic was never a sole goal in itself, and these aesthetics were classical Japanese aesthetics, not the Western Vizer-type of "spectacular aesthetics", not the sort of thing to be expressed in superlatives such as largest, biggests, tallest, most expensive, etc. On the contrary.

    Now, there is at least one other precedent of kata-like exercises that is at risk to the same concerns, namely, the "Judo dance". The Judo dance was demonstrated several times during main events at the Kôdôkan and elswhere in the 1950s. It presumably was done away with because it forced women jûdôkan into stereotypical roles. I would need to look up though, if the Jûdô dance was created during Kanô's life or condoned by him. Certainly, the argument would stand that the Jûdô dance too was far more geared towards 'entertainment' than anything else, altough one could argue probably that in a nondiverse society with stereotypical gender roles, the "Judo dance" for women was an essential part of 'their' education though obviously not for men. As offensive as such a statement might sound today, it probably is not too far off from reality in Japan in those days, since women at the Women's department of the Kôdôkan also had separate classes in etiquette. Men did not.

    Thus, even if the "Judo dance" could compare in concept somewhat with the "Judo show", parallel is only partly true, which brings me back to my initial questions on how "Judo kata show" is in anyway essential in Kanô's educational view of jûdô and what it is supposedly to transmit to the jûdôka that is manifest in his improvement of jûdô ?

    "Judo show" by its own name is an odd case, since contrary to kata, which is primarily intended for yourself, a 'show' is fundamentally intended for others ! What it seems to strive for is a mere visual display not supported by any educational principle, but by what by laypeople may be perceived as spectacular,that what maximally impresses through out effect, effect that is amplified by things anathema to direct improvement of education, such as flashing light shows, bright colors and emphasis on qualities that from a viewpoint of Japanese aesthetics do not correspond with the ulterior mastership of aesthetic values.

    Evaluating different such exercises by scores and point pushes the problem to an even greater extremity, because one then has to explain what jusifies a higher score when compared with a lower one ? Oftentimes the answer to that is also strangely removed from any of the objectives of Kanô.

    Thus, to come back to your argument, I understand it in its absolute form, but I do not understand its relative place in judo as conceived by Kano, or as evolved building on Kanô's concept.

    I hope I have been able to provide some insight in these concerns. It is not "modern evolution" which is a taboo. Clearly, YouTube did not exist in Kanô's day, and is a modern evolution too, but one that positively contributes to people's knowledge by exposing them to online clinics, study material, etc.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Quicksilver

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Quicksilver on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:54 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Quicksilver wrote:I am of the opinion that the main mistake one might make upon viewing these is to judge them by the standards and criteria of what they are not- that is, traditional kata or even necessarily 'Judo' in an essential sense, because the primary intent behind them is very different. And as an appropriation of elements of Judo to produce a show, a display of skill and athleticism intended to impress and entertain, I do not think this to be a negative thing in general and regarding the above videos specifically, those in them seem to have done a pretty good job.

    It is interesting, the implications carried by matters such as this and opinions thereon.

    Thank you for that thoughtful response. I was toying around with the idea of writing up a scholarly paper on the topic, and it is always useful to bounce off a couple of ideas. Yours is an interesting argument that I am trying to place against the background of judo.

    Bear with me for a second before I come back to your argument.

    Judo evolves. I think that is logical and acceptable. It evolved during Kanô's life and it evolved afterwards. Nothing in Kanô's ideas suggested that jûdô was meant to cease existing with his passing. That would also not be in line with Japanese budô tradition and Japanese thinking. Therefore, Kanô must have been very aware of the idea that judo would continue to evolve.

    Where it gets more obscure is ... that I do not think that this evoluation was supposed to go uncontrolled. There was evolution in jûdô techniques during Kanô's life, techniques that were also developed by others. He accepted that, although whatever was developed needed to be in line with his thinking. For example, he was rather critical of Feldenkrais' manuscript, because clearly what Feldenkrais described seems to have been both conceptually and technically not entirely in line with Kanô's. Kanô seems to have been very critical when people touched kata, although he himself changed kata several times, and the infamous 1906 Butokukai meeting also brouoght changes. It seems that Kanô was more appreciative of the jûjutsu masters present during that meeting than of individuals who separate from him started changing things. Maybe the difference is also that at the 1906 meeting he was an active member during the dicussions. Kanô is known to have reacted rather terse when Koizum in 1932 showed some 'improvements' to jû-no-kata and demonstrated his version. Kanô immediately reacted: "That is an modification of jû-no-kata !" The meaning of that sentence should be interpreted a bit darker than what it wordly is communicating ...

    Kanô never during his life condoned any of the kata Mifune developed, and Mifune arguably was not an incompetent judo idiot. My understanding from Kanô's negative reactions is that he considered the comprehension of his Kôdôkan jûdô by others as deficient, at least conceptually. It didn't matter if you were a superb technician, as that was not what his judo was about. Enough excellent technicians (Saigô Shirô, Yokoyama Sakujirô) actually separated from him.

    It seems that in Kanô's ideas the Kôdôkan would remain the guardian of proper jûdô. That is also logical as there is nothing about an IJF or anything in control of his jûdô. He likely assumed that his best and most faithful pupils (Nagaoka, etc) would fulfill that job. Kanô did not foresee that 75 years later the comprehension of many of his lessons would even be lost among many of those teaching at the Kôdôkan. Oimatsu is long gone, and Daigo is the last one holding some of that knowledge. There is no proper succession foreseen at the Kôdôkan after Daigo. Teaching staff has mostly been trained to memorize mechanical steps, but not the conceptual meaning or historic development and place of kata and kata-like exercises. The relevancy of this statement is that Judo Show was not something condoned by the Kôdôkan and even less by those at the Kôdôkan with the best intrinsic knowledge.

    Furthermore, Kanô emphatically and extensively discussed the necessity of practising both randori and kata. This was obviously not essential to win a certain contest, but it was essential to comprehend jûdô in the way he saw jûdô. Kanô never wrote that it is essential to show or demonstrate kata to others and eventually be evaluated on them. No, he talked about 'practice' of kata. Thus the purpose of kata, no doubt, is to improve YOUR jûdô. A demonstration does not really serve to improve your jûdô; the preceding practice might, but the demonstration itself has as a purpose to exhibit something to a body of spectators. There is no record of kata intended for demonstration before half of the 1890s. It's something that almost haphazardly started to introduce jûdô to others, probably to show it was a valuable alternative to jûjutsu, but also very different (in Kanô's opinion).

    Now that we know that practice of kata was for yourself, not for others, and that doing so was essential, we can derive that each kata added something essential. What it adds and can add is proportional to the level one has and wants to achieve. It is then not illogical that one cannot even begin to understand that material which is far above one's level. A brown belt does not have to be occupied with what precisely itsutsu-no-kata is trying to communicate, but he needs to be concerned about how practice of nage-no-kata improves his randori in terms of responses, kuzushi, debana, action reaction, ma-ai. All the kata established by Kanô as Kôdôkankata,irrespective of whether they were original or imported fulfilled that purpose.

    Within that conceptual view the practice of "judo show" should therefore be essential in addition to randori. If it isn't, then there is an intrinsic problem with regard to the existence of such kata. The second problem is that each kata adds an essential component in Kanô's comprehensive educational view of jû-no-kata. I have a fairly good understanding of the sense and role of all kata established by Kanô, and also of the other two Kôdôkan kata established after his death. I do, however, not understand how the "judo show kata" fits in there. What part of jûdô as a broad education does it play an essential role in in achieving that goal ?

    In your explanation you offer such a goal, and I understand that, but I do not find that goal anywhere in Kanô's objectives of jûdô. It is true that in Kanô's personal evolution there was a shift towards the more aesthetic, which probably also explains a certain loss of fighting skill realism, a problem which also over time jûdô's parent schools suffered from. However, the aesthetic was never a sole goal in itself, and these aesthetics were classical Japanese aesthetics, not the Western Vizer-type of "spectacular aesthetics", not the sort of thing to be expressed in superlatives such as largest, biggests, tallest, most expensive, etc. On the contrary.

    Now, there is at least one other precedent of kata-like exercises that is at risk to the same concerns, namely, the "Judo dance". The Judo dance was demonstrated several times during main events at the Kôdôkan and elswhere in the 1950s. It presumably was done away with because it forced women jûdôkan into stereotypical roles. I would need to look up though, if the Jûdô dance was created during Kanô's life or condoned by him. Certainly, the argument would stand that the Jûdô dance too was far more geared towards 'entertainment' than anything else, altough one could argue probably that in a nondiverse society with stereotypical gender roles, the "Judo dance" for women was an essential part of 'their' education though obviously not for men. As offensive as such a statement might sound today, it probably is not too far off from reality in Japan in those days, since women at the Women's department of the Kôdôkan also had separate classes in etiquette. Men did not.

    Thus, even if the "Judo dance" could compare in concept somewhat with the "Judo show", parallel is only partly true, which brings me back to my initial questions on how "Judo kata show" is in anyway essential in Kanô's educational view of jûdô and what it is supposedly to transmit to the jûdôka that is manifest in his improvement of jûdô ?

    "Judo show" by its own name is an odd case, since contrary to kata, which is primarily intended for yourself, a 'show' is fundamentally intended for others ! What it seems to strive for is a mere visual display not supported by any educational principle, but by what by laypeople may be perceived as spectacular,that what maximally impresses through out effect, effect that is amplified by things anathema to direct improvement of education, such as flashing light shows, bright colors and emphasis on qualities that from a viewpoint of Japanese aesthetics do not correspond with the ulterior mastership of aesthetic values.

    Evaluating different such exercises by scores and point pushes the problem to an even greater extremity, because one then has to explain what jusifies a higher score when compared with a lower one ? Oftentimes the answer to that is also strangely removed from any of the objectives of Kanô.

    Thus, to come back to your argument, I understand it in its absolute form, but I do not understand its relative place in judo as conceived by Kano, or as evolved building on Kanô's concept.

    I hope I have been able to provide some insight in these concerns. It is not "modern evolution" which is a taboo. Clearly, YouTube did not exist in Kanô's day, and is a modern evolution too, but one that positively contributes to people's knowledge by exposing them to online clinics, study material, etc.

    Thank you, what you write is interesting and I think I do understand what you mean.

    This is something of a digression, but how inseparable in your opinion in Kano's Judo is the ideological from the physical? You mentioned earlier that one may be highly technically proficient but perhaps lacking or differing in theoretical understanding in a philosophical (for want of a better term) sense, but to what degree must this theoretical understanding be preceded by practical/technical ability, and why?

    Regards


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    Hanon

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Hanon on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:34 pm

    Quicksilver wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Quicksilver wrote:I am of the opinion that the main mistake one might make upon viewing these is to judge them by the standards and criteria of what they are not- that is, traditional kata or even necessarily 'Judo' in an essential sense, because the primary intent behind them is very different. And as an appropriation of elements of Judo to produce a show, a display of skill and athleticism intended to impress and entertain, I do not think this to be a negative thing in general and regarding the above videos specifically, those in them seem to have done a pretty good job.

    It is interesting, the implications carried by matters such as this and opinions thereon.

    Thank you for that thoughtful response. I was toying around with the idea of writing up a scholarly paper on the topic, and it is always useful to bounce off a couple of ideas. Yours is an interesting argument that I am trying to place against the background of judo.

    Bear with me for a second before I come back to your argument.

    Judo evolves. I think that is logical and acceptable. It evolved during Kanô's life and it evolved afterwards. Nothing in Kanô's ideas suggested that jûdô was meant to cease existing with his passing. That would also not be in line with Japanese budô tradition and Japanese thinking. Therefore, Kanô must have been very aware of the idea that judo would continue to evolve.

    Where it gets more obscure is ... that I do not think that this evoluation was supposed to go uncontrolled. There was evolution in jûdô techniques during Kanô's life, techniques that were also developed by others. He accepted that, although whatever was developed needed to be in line with his thinking. For example, he was rather critical of Feldenkrais' manuscript, because clearly what Feldenkrais described seems to have been both conceptually and technically not entirely in line with Kanô's. Kanô seems to have been very critical when people touched kata, although he himself changed kata several times, and the infamous 1906 Butokukai meeting also brouoght changes. It seems that Kanô was more appreciative of the jûjutsu masters present during that meeting than of individuals who separate from him started changing things. Maybe the difference is also that at the 1906 meeting he was an active member during the dicussions. Kanô is known to have reacted rather terse when Koizum in 1932 showed some 'improvements' to jû-no-kata and demonstrated his version. Kanô immediately reacted: "That is an modification of jû-no-kata !" The meaning of that sentence should be interpreted a bit darker than what it wordly is communicating ...

    Kanô never during his life condoned any of the kata Mifune developed, and Mifune arguably was not an incompetent judo idiot. My understanding from Kanô's negative reactions is that he considered the comprehension of his Kôdôkan jûdô by others as deficient, at least conceptually. It didn't matter if you were a superb technician, as that was not what his judo was about. Enough excellent technicians (Saigô Shirô, Yokoyama Sakujirô) actually separated from him.

    It seems that in Kanô's ideas the Kôdôkan would remain the guardian of proper jûdô. That is also logical as there is nothing about an IJF or anything in control of his jûdô. He likely assumed that his best and most faithful pupils (Nagaoka, etc) would fulfill that job. Kanô did not foresee that 75 years later the comprehension of many of his lessons would even be lost among many of those teaching at the Kôdôkan. Oimatsu is long gone, and Daigo is the last one holding some of that knowledge. There is no proper succession foreseen at the Kôdôkan after Daigo. Teaching staff has mostly been trained to memorize mechanical steps, but not the conceptual meaning or historic development and place of kata and kata-like exercises. The relevancy of this statement is that Judo Show was not something condoned by the Kôdôkan and even less by those at the Kôdôkan with the best intrinsic knowledge.

    Furthermore, Kanô emphatically and extensively discussed the necessity of practising both randori and kata. This was obviously not essential to win a certain contest, but it was essential to comprehend jûdô in the way he saw jûdô. Kanô never wrote that it is essential to show or demonstrate kata to others and eventually be evaluated on them. No, he talked about 'practice' of kata. Thus the purpose of kata, no doubt, is to improve YOUR jûdô. A demonstration does not really serve to improve your jûdô; the preceding practice might, but the demonstration itself has as a purpose to exhibit something to a body of spectators. There is no record of kata intended for demonstration before half of the 1890s. It's something that almost haphazardly started to introduce jûdô to others, probably to show it was a valuable alternative to jûjutsu, but also very different (in Kanô's opinion).

    Now that we know that practice of kata was for yourself, not for others, and that doing so was essential, we can derive that each kata added something essential. What it adds and can add is proportional to the level one has and wants to achieve. It is then not illogical that one cannot even begin to understand that material which is far above one's level. A brown belt does not have to be occupied with what precisely itsutsu-no-kata is trying to communicate, but he needs to be concerned about how practice of nage-no-kata improves his randori in terms of responses, kuzushi, debana, action reaction, ma-ai. All the kata established by Kanô as Kôdôkankata,irrespective of whether they were original or imported fulfilled that purpose.

    Within that conceptual view the practice of "judo show" should therefore be essential in addition to randori. If it isn't, then there is an intrinsic problem with regard to the existence of such kata. The second problem is that each kata adds an essential component in Kanô's comprehensive educational view of jû-no-kata. I have a fairly good understanding of the sense and role of all kata established by Kanô, and also of the other two Kôdôkan kata established after his death. I do, however, not understand how the "judo show kata" fits in there. What part of jûdô as a broad education does it play an essential role in in achieving that goal ?

    In your explanation you offer such a goal, and I understand that, but I do not find that goal anywhere in Kanô's objectives of jûdô. It is true that in Kanô's personal evolution there was a shift towards the more aesthetic, which probably also explains a certain loss of fighting skill realism, a problem which also over time jûdô's parent schools suffered from. However, the aesthetic was never a sole goal in itself, and these aesthetics were classical Japanese aesthetics, not the Western Vizer-type of "spectacular aesthetics", not the sort of thing to be expressed in superlatives such as largest, biggests, tallest, most expensive, etc. On the contrary.

    Now, there is at least one other precedent of kata-like exercises that is at risk to the same concerns, namely, the "Judo dance". The Judo dance was demonstrated several times during main events at the Kôdôkan and elswhere in the 1950s. It presumably was done away with because it forced women jûdôkan into stereotypical roles. I would need to look up though, if the Jûdô dance was created during Kanô's life or condoned by him. Certainly, the argument would stand that the Jûdô dance too was far more geared towards 'entertainment' than anything else, altough one could argue probably that in a nondiverse society with stereotypical gender roles, the "Judo dance" for women was an essential part of 'their' education though obviously not for men. As offensive as such a statement might sound today, it probably is not too far off from reality in Japan in those days, since women at the Women's department of the Kôdôkan also had separate classes in etiquette. Men did not.

    Thus, even if the "Judo dance" could compare in concept somewhat with the "Judo show", parallel is only partly true, which brings me back to my initial questions on how "Judo kata show" is in anyway essential in Kanô's educational view of jûdô and what it is supposedly to transmit to the jûdôka that is manifest in his improvement of jûdô ?

    "Judo show" by its own name is an odd case, since contrary to kata, which is primarily intended for yourself, a 'show' is fundamentally intended for others ! What it seems to strive for is a mere visual display not supported by any educational principle, but by what by laypeople may be perceived as spectacular,that what maximally impresses through out effect, effect that is amplified by things anathema to direct improvement of education, such as flashing light shows, bright colors and emphasis on qualities that from a viewpoint of Japanese aesthetics do not correspond with the ulterior mastership of aesthetic values.

    Evaluating different such exercises by scores and point pushes the problem to an even greater extremity, because one then has to explain what jusifies a higher score when compared with a lower one ? Oftentimes the answer to that is also strangely removed from any of the objectives of Kanô.

    Thus, to come back to your argument, I understand it in its absolute form, but I do not understand its relative place in judo as conceived by Kano, or as evolved building on Kanô's concept.

    I hope I have been able to provide some insight in these concerns. It is not "modern evolution" which is a taboo. Clearly, YouTube did not exist in Kanô's day, and is a modern evolution too, but one that positively contributes to people's knowledge by exposing them to online clinics, study material, etc.

    Thank you, what you write is interesting and I think I do understand what you mean.

    This is something of a digression, but how inseparable in your opinion in Kano's Judo is the ideological from the physical? You mentioned earlier that one may be highly technically proficient but perhaps lacking or differing in theoretical understanding in a philosophical (for want of a better term) sense, but to what degree must this theoretical understanding be preceded by practical/technical ability, and why?

    Regards

    This is a question worthy of debate. Before CK Sensei offers an answer, what would your thought be?

    Kind regards,

    Mike


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    Quicksilver

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Quicksilver on Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:01 am

    Hanon wrote:

    This is a question worthy of debate. Before CK Sensei offers an answer, what would your thought be?

    Kind regards,

    Mike


    Greetings,

    I write this rather tentatively, and my answer- or rather, the set of thoughts that I'm tossing around to advise it- has nothing like the breadth or depth that I would prefer it to, and I am also speaking mainly in generalisations; and of course I’d add the ever present caveat that I am very much a student in all things... However for whatever they may be worth...

    Firstly, and I may be pointing out the obvious, but matters I'd consider of import; the differing natures (though as with all distinctions I make these loosely) of knowledge and understanding (a practical example is the difference between knowing the set of movements necessary to make a given technique work as opposed to actually understanding and appreciating the biomechanics and physics involved), and then the distinction between that of [the practical, the mechanical, the physical] and [the ideological, the philosophical, the moral, of which the physical may be expressive/representative/metaphorical] in terms of the ways in which matters of their respective natures may be observed, analysed etc. And then, particularly when dealing with the latter there is a distinction of comprehension- the difference between recognising that something carries connotations beyond the literal and speculating as to the nature of these, and having further, practical knowledge usually of the circumstances surrounding the creation of the matter to be considered allowing recognition of intent and thus ‘actual’ intended meaning (and there's the potential debate here about importance of intention and the way in which abstract concepts may seemingly take on substance of their own, but I digress). And, when dealing with a more complex and non-primarily-abstract system, particularly when it is sociologically based, context (of which intention may be considered a part) becomes of particular import because the distinction between an individuals interpretation and what 'is' takes on practical reality and relevance. I recognise that a lot of this goes without saying but I bring it up anyway because they are matters of significance in a question that becomes philosophical, epistemological and pedagogical in concerns and nature beyond the specificity of the primary subject.

    I would propose that conceptual understanding 'can' be gleaned independently from other factors in any discipline- the intellect and ability of the student allowing- Judo included; however, since the human mind is not like a computer but rather processes and stores information in an idiosyncratic manner, such information does not exist in isolation from the circumstances under which it is input, and these may be just as significant to its sum impact and significance as the information itself. For example, it is one thing to theoretically and medically know precisely what it is like to have a dislocated limb reset, quite another to experience it; it is one thing to read a poem and understand what the author is saying (either theoretically, or with specific contextual information advising your interpretation) and recognise the 'literary techniques’ (for want of a less simplistic term) used to do so, quite another to go through the process of writing such a poem yourself. And the aforementioned ‘distinctions’ are all relevant ‘variables’, which is why I brought them up, though if I elaborate further on this I’m going to end up writing an essay; hopefully I've managed to convey something of what I'm angling at? Another way of looking at this; that it is not impossible to understand something without experiencing it, and to experience something is not necessarily to understand, but the two are not unrelated and each is not without pertinence to the other. That applies in a mechanical sense (the former example), also in an ideological/philosophical/etc. one (the latter)… and both seem to have pertinence within the context of Judo?

    That is not really an actual 'answer', certainly not a particularly complete one, however there are some of my (hopefully intelligible) assorted thoughts on the matter. I look forward to this discussion.

    Regards,


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    Hanon

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Hanon on Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:49 am

    Hi QS,

    "......How inseparable in your opinion in Kano's Judo is the ideological from the physical?"

    The simple answer is they are one and the same. The waters deepen when an explanation is needed. Shocked

    You write you are a beginner and student of judo. I am not being flippant when I write that we are all the same in that respect. Its a long passage and though some are further down that passage than others non of us ever reach the end. I no longer accept that that is even the ideology of learning judo. I think its the journey that makes us who we are not the destination? Question

    The philosophy, ideology of judo can only ever be understood, learned and internalised by its physical practice. That practice starts with basic manners like the rei and passes though the years to genuine love and care abut this planet and all life forms on it. I am now causing you concern? Please don't be alarmed by what I write I am not a guru or some chap with a long white beard and walks around barefoot saving ants from impending death.

    The goal of judo is world peace. That is such a massive ideology-concept that most judoka laugh. Its so far away and removed from o-goshi and hadaka-jime that such an ideology cannot be appreciated yet it is there if the judo student lives the life of a judoka. Now that last line does sound odd? Exclamation

    You see the physical aspects of kodokan judo are very much a vehicle we use to build and develop the inner character.

    ..................................................................................

    Before I write another word I have to make it clear I am only a student and cannot achieve myself the lofty goals that kano set for us. Please don't expect me to walk on water and find in me some infallible human being. I understand some of the theory and have an awful lot of the practical application of judo under my obi BUT I am still human and very fallible, regardless my being a registered antique. Rolling Eyes

    ..................................................................................

    Judo is a full contact martial way. This means we actually fight each other. These fights are where we test our techniques but much more important these fights are where we learn to develop the inner self and overall character. How so?
    When we are taught by sensei we are given time to learn our physical art, we serve an apprenticeship where pressure to win in shiai is absent until we are physically and emotionally able to make the best of entering such shiai.

    In reality our biggest fight in judo is not with a partner its with ourselves. Each time we partake in a shiai we have to step up to the mark and face our inner fears, doubts and insecurities. Our partner is there to do the same so in reality its not about who wins the shiai its about who takes home the greatest lessons and those are how we win or lose and who we lose to. By lose to I mean ourselves. Did we give up all hope as soon as we knew who our partner was? Did we truly give our best? Did we cheat, play for time etc. These lessons from shiai are directly applicable to our daily lives.

    In the physical world of judo we make tai sabaki, counters, use combinations and follow ups, we bluff, we do all sorts physical actions to over come another person. This is a key area in relation to the philosophy of judo. These lessons are then taken into our lives. eg,
    We are hit in the rear by another car. Do we get out of our care with anger and punch the other driver? Do we leave our car to see if the other driver is hurt? Do we even bother with the other driver or do we just look at the damage done to our car. These life choices can depend on many many factors and the practice of kodokan judo is but one manner that we may use to make a choice in real life terms.

    Every single pupil a sensei teaches can become a winner. A winner in life. It is not that medal around ones neck that makes a judoka even a judoka its how that person is inside, how they are as a person. As soon as we step onto a tatami we are on the path to self development. The development starts in a micro fashion on a tatami but soon enough that dojo becomes ones world and our judo becomes us. Physical and emotional development though practice. That is why kano shihan wrote "never miss a lesson" Obvious yet so important.

    This has been one of my infamous rambles and I have no idea if I have managed to make any sense at all. Please do pass feedback. I am still trying to understand the questions never alone find the answers.

    Kindest regards,

    Mike

    Important addendum. 22 05 13. When I posted the above I had NO IDEA that 'judo show' was now part of the actual judo curriculum and even had championship status where EJU medals where awarded. I find this absurd. There is not enough dojo time these days to practice judo let alone practice to medal in 'judo show'. I must make my point clear. I am 100% against this 'judo show' being used at it is. A judo display to raise money is one thing to take it and integrate it into actual judo is beyond my comprehension. I would walk out of any championship where such a thing was being shown. I will never teach such a thing or be associated with it at any level.
    This was a question of a display in the appropriate occasion being used to entertain the public to show the lighter side of judo. This is NOT judo and to spend time practicing to medal in such an activity is simply absurd. Mike



    Last edited by Hanon on Wed May 22, 2013 11:55 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Quicksilver

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Quicksilver on Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:43 am

    Hanon wrote:Hi QS,

    "......How inseparable in your opinion in Kano's Judo is the ideological from the physical?"

    The simple answer is they are one and the same. The waters deepen when an explanation is needed. Shocked

    You write you are a beginner and student of judo. I am not being flippant when I write that we are all the same in that respect. Its a long passage and though some are further down that passage than others non of us ever reach the end. I no longer accept that that is even the ideology of learning judo. I think its the journey that makes us who we are not the destination? Question

    The philosophy, ideology of judo can only ever be understood, learned and internalised by its physical practice. That practice starts with basic manners like the rei and passes though the years to genuine love and care abut this planet and all life forms on it. I am now causing you concern? Please don't be alarmed by what I write I am not a guru or some chap with a long white beard and walks around barefoot saving ants from impending death.

    The goal of judo is world peace. That is such a massive ideology-concept that most judoka laugh. Its so far away and removed from o-goshi and hadaka-jime that such an ideology cannot be appreciated yet it is there if the judo student lives the life of a judoka. Now that last line does sound odd? Exclamation

    You see the physical aspects of kodokan judo are very much a vehicle we use to build and develop the inner character.

    ..................................................................................

    Before I write another word I have to make it clear I am only a student and cannot achieve myself the lofty goals that kano set for us. Please don't expect me to walk on water and find in me some infallible human being. I understand some of the theory and have an awful lot of the practical application of judo under my obi BUT I am still human and very fallible, regardless my being a registered antique. Rolling Eyes

    ..................................................................................

    Judo is a full contact martial way. This means we actually fight each other. These fights are where we test our techniques but much more important these fights are where we learn to develop the inner self and overall character. How so?
    When we are taught by sensei we are given time to learn our physical art, we serve an apprenticeship where pressure to win in shiai is absent until we are physically and emotionally able to make the best of entering such shiai.

    In reality our biggest fight in judo is not with a partner its with ourselves. Each time we partake in a shiai we have to step up to the mark and face our inner fears, doubts and insecurities. Our partner is there to do the same so in reality its not about who wins the shiai its about who takes home the greatest lessons and those are how we win or lose and who we lose to. By lose to I mean ourselves. Did we give up all hope as soon as we knew who our partner was? Did we truly give our best? Did we cheat, play for time etc. These lessons from shiai are directly applicable to our daily lives.

    In the physical world of judo we make tai sabaki, counters, use combinations and follow ups, we bluff, we do all sorts physical actions to over come another person. This is a key area in relation to the philosophy of judo. These lessons are then taken into our lives. eg,
    We are hit in the rear by another car. Do we get out of our care with anger and punch the other driver? Do we leave our car to see if the other driver is hurt? Do we even bother with the other driver or do we just look at the damage done to our car. These life choices can depend on many many factors and the practice of kodokan judo is but one manner that we may use to make a choice in real life terms.

    Every single pupil a sensei teaches can become a winner. A winner in life. It is not that medal around ones neck that makes a judoka even a judoka its how that person is inside, how they are as a person. As soon as we step onto a tatami we are on the path to self development. The development starts in a micro fashion on a tatami but soon enough that dojo becomes ones world and our judo becomes us. Physical and emotional development though practice. That is why kano shihan wrote "never miss a lesson" Obvious yet so important.

    This has been one of my infamous rambles and I have no idea if I have managed to make any sense at all. Please do pass feedback. I am still trying to understand the questions never alone find the answers.

    Kindest regards,

    Mike


    Thank you for your reply, what you write does make sense. I don't wish to derail this thread any further however I do have queries regarding what you have written, may I send you a PM on the subject?

    Regards & with gratitude,


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    Hanon

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Hanon on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:29 am

    Evan better why don't you open a new thread. thumbs

    Kindest regards

    Mike


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    GregW

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by GregW on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:54 pm

    Maybe I'm the proverbial "stick-in-the-mud," but I found the whole idea undignified. One of the most beautiful things I saw in my judo life was ju no kata performed by two young women back in the 1970s in Richmond, Virginia.

    Our club had gone up to a tournament in, if I recall correctly, the Jewish Community Center there. After the shiai was over, when we were waiting for the officials to begin handing out medals, they dimmed the lights and two young women came out and bowed in on the mats. There was one bright spotlight that illuminated a circular area over the mat. There was no announcement of what was going to happen in advance.

    The girls began the kata and a hush fell over the room. Even the smaller children were entranced. The only sounds were the sounds of feet sliding over the mat and the sound of the cloth as gi brushed against gi. I was a green belt at the time and I had never seen any kata before (this was two decades before YouTube!), but I had heard of it.

    When they finished, there was a moment of silence and then the whole room erupted in applause. I was totally impressed. I had seen a moment of great beauty in judo. It's one of the things that still burns like a fire in my memory. It's one of the reasons why I love judo so much.

    Judo is the marriage of power, grace, beauty, and commitment. Seeing it reduced to a "show" isn't appealing at all. Humanity has enough "American Idols" and "look at me--I'm the greatest" talent shows. To me, judo is the antithesis of that mentality. A judo "show" does judo a disservice.

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Hanon on Wed May 01, 2013 2:10 am

    GregW wrote:Maybe I'm the proverbial "stick-in-the-mud," but I found the whole idea undignified. One of the most beautiful things I saw in my judo life was ju no kata performed by two young women back in the 1970s in Richmond, Virginia.

    Our club had gone up to a tournament in, if I recall correctly, the Jewish Community Center there. After the shiai was over, when we were waiting for the officials to begin handing out medals, they dimmed the lights and two young women came out and bowed in on the mats. There was one bright spotlight that illuminated a circular area over the mat. There was no announcement of what was going to happen in advance.

    The girls began the kata and a hush fell over the room. Even the smaller children were entranced. The only sounds were the sounds of feet sliding over the mat and the sound of the cloth as gi brushed against gi. I was a green belt at the time and I had never seen any kata before (this was two decades before YouTube!), but I had heard of it.

    When they finished, there was a moment of silence and then the whole room erupted in applause. I was totally impressed. I had seen a moment of great beauty in judo. It's one of the things that still burns like a fire in my memory. It's one of the reasons why I love judo so much.

    Judo is the marriage of power, grace, beauty, and commitment. Seeing it reduced to a "show" isn't appealing at all. Humanity has enough "American Idols" and "look at me--I'm the greatest" talent shows. To me, judo is the antithesis of that mentality. A judo "show" does judo a disservice.

    Hello,

    This is going to be hell. I think the modern language would be ' I feel you dude'? Meaning, I hope, that I understand your post.
    Being called a stick in the mud is only part of the situation. I am labled a traditionalist, a purist and many other non printable titles because I don't agree with the use of crash mats. I have written chapter and verse on the subject giving sound logic reasoning for holding such a stance. I use this as one example.

    Like it or not, accept it or not I gaurantee you yourself would not last a day on some of the courses I have taken under the direction of Awazu sensei. I also guarantee I would not have lasted a day at the pre WW11 DNBK dojo. I guess I am saying that time stands still for no man and if we do not accept that judo is an activity practiced by man who is evolving
    WE will see more and more dojo closure. We cannot continue to hold judo in some sort of time capsule, its abnormal to do so.
    Years ago my attitude to that was so be it. Why should the work of Kano be destroyed just because its 1990 and not 1940!

    You mention 1970. Think of many life experiences dating back to that era. Cinema. We would sit in silence and watch the film, Today people get lambasted by kids and teens throwing popcorn at other people, mobiles phones going of and people texting, end of the film the cinema looks like a pig sty and why? Because the owners make a fortune from the sae of all the crap that dirties the place.
    In 1970 when we played sports if the other side won a point we would also applaud them. Today football fans are segregated not only from each other but the players too!

    We worry and debate the use of blue gi. Have you seen other sporting activities? Cricket was an all white wear affair look at it now! I appreciate judo is not a sport but tell the public that who see it in the Olympics. Tell teddy Riner that whose behaviour even for a sportsman id disgusting. he is the worlds number one in terms of the publics vision of what judo is! Lord have mercy...

    Point is judo is a sign, a representation of society and it is this way due to the simple fact people change that what we see in the dojo is not what it was even ten years ago.

    My own son, who is 'only' 31 years of age has refused to set foot on my tatami for well over 6 years as he says I had gone soft and the lessons where woozified. I allowed him to take a lesson, next period the class was a quarter of the size?

    I have zero idea what the future holds for judo. I do know that to survive in any form we, the older generation, simply have to adapt to todays society. Like it or not this is not Japan in 1950, nor the West in 1970.

    I battled every year when my dojo visited another dojo. My members would see bare footed athletes walking around the changing rooms, going to the toilet then brining drinks into the gym and placing them at the side of the mat. Pupils not requesting permission to enter nor leave the mat, no knowledge of reigi, ukemi being something from Mars and so on.
    The words, zori, judoka, dojo, rei etc where unheard of. Next time you visit a dojo as what o-goshi is or even ukemi?
    Mention tai sabaki or shizenhontai and you may well get a smack in the teeth!

    You teachers of today have to compete with Sony play station where the kids can sit at home and fight in cyber space not even working up a sweat! Youth no longer tolerate a strong or even medium level of discipline and self discipline is an complete anathema to many. Respect for ones own property is at an awful level so respect for others is also suffering.

    You as a professional teacher know the incredible shift in rules from teachers of the past physically abusing the kids to todays situation where its the kids who physically abuse the teachers. Not to mention said abusive kids have the support of their parents!

    Where is judo today in comparison to 50 years ago? In many areas things have actually improved! As a child of 8 I joined a dojo and we had to earn our membership and until we did we where not allowed on the tatami but where kept on some sort of very old school gym mats. We where NOT seen as children but judo members. No separate classes for kids and adults. If I wanted to practice judo I joined in the class and took what the adults did. It was truly abusive even brutal in comparison to what we see today and when I became a dan grade and by accident ended up with my own dojo at 16, yes 16, I was dedicated to ensure no pupils would suffer the physical and emotional turmoil I did. my own woozification process started!

    Taiso has developed, Judo has been positively decadent in accepting new scientific approaches and training methods.
    Why do I posses the skeletal body of an 80 year old at my age? Its because of incorrect and dangerous tuition when I was young.

    To the point.

    We have to ask several questions regarding clip number one. I write that as I only saw clip number one. Let me say who ever taught those pupils judo knew his judo.
    Is it appropriate to ever have games on a tatami?
    Is it ever appropriate to hold a display that is not true to judo core values as the one shown in the clip?

    Here is my present view and its flexible and open to education and thus change.

    The judo part I found entertaining so IF that was the goal for me it struck a goal.

    The judo part did show judo skill not in the traditional fashion but there are times and places for all things. I found the dancing awful and the choreographer should be shot, lack of imagination and clearly the pupils felt uncomfortable with that pi55 poor routine. Had that been under my direction I would have paired the dancers using classical music such as the waltz, and used judo nage waza in tune with that music and foot movement, then the tango. Just imagine being thrown to in de ashi braai to the beat of the tango! Ko uchi gari.. wonderful transition from judo nage waza into music.

    Do I here blasphemy being called! Hang on.

    I do NOT agree with taking judo down to the lowest possible activity simply to get people into gi and on a tatami. This is folly as no sooner they join expecting to dance that when they discover judo is not dancing the door swings the other way.

    I agree that a kata or any other judo event must be carried out in judo like manner. There are times however when judo needs to be seen by the pubic as an activity with a humanistic aspect and one that can look inwardly and laugh at ourselves. I must add the there is a time and place for every thing and I would not expect to see such a demo at one of the kodokan summer school courses. I see zero reason, at present, not to have this sort of fun take on judo at the end of a children's camp. I would hope the dance routine would be much better organised and in tune with the quality of the judo!

    Again I must write. I only viewed the first clip. I have no idea under what circumstances that took place.

    Maybe I have just committed heresy? I do know this judo is dying. I do know that judo has to be fun, I do know the days of learning a discipline like judo as a study for the sake of hard work is over, hence the closure of many dojo world wide.

    I have no answers how to fill ones dojo. I am unsure if like forum judo, dojo judo has seen its heyday and will not be seen again. I repeat judo is a reflection on society and we cannot go back in time. If there are answers I am void of them.
    Bit of a brain storm there, rather a mishmash of ideas.

    Bottom line given the right conditions, appropriate circumstances and I would say the judo section in clip one was rather entertaining and did show those pupils had a decent teacher. I would shoot the dance teacher.

    Hohum,

    Mike

    Important addendum. 22 05 13. When I posted the above I had NO IDEA that 'judo show' was now part of the actual judo curriculum and even had championship status where EJU medals where awarded. I find this absurd. There is not enough dojo time these days to practice judo let alone practice to medal in 'judo show'. I must make my point clear. I am 100% against this 'judo show' being used at it is. A judo display to raise money is one thing to take it and integrate it into actual judo is beyond my comprehension. I would walk out of any championship where such a thing was being shown. I will never teach such a thing or be associated with it at any level.
    This was a question of a display in the appropriate occasion being used to entertain the public to show the lighter side of judo. This is NOT judo and to spend time practicing to medal in such an activity is simply absurd. Mike


    Last edited by Hanon on Wed May 22, 2013 11:58 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Addendum)


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Hanon on Thu May 23, 2013 12:09 am

    Important addendum. 22 05 13. When I posted my previous posts I had NO IDEA that 'judo show' was now part of the actual judo curriculum and even had championship status where EJU medals where awarded. I find this absurd. There is not enough dojo time these days to practice judo let alone practice to medal in 'judo show'. I must make my point clear. I am 100% against this 'judo show' being used at it is. A judo display to raise money is one thing to take it and integrate it into actual judo is beyond my comprehension. I would walk out of any championship where such a thing was being shown. I will never teach such a thing or be associated with it at any level.

    This was a question of a display in the appropriate occasion being used to entertain the public to show the lighter side of judo. This is NOT judo and to spend time practicing to medal in such an activity is simply absurd.

    I sincerely apologise for not comprehending the initial intent of the post and taking on board its true context. I only watched the first clip and very wrongly assumed this was 'just' a one of display that most dojo make every now and then to show at the end of some other event that judo has a lighter side. I can but repeaat I had zero knowledge that this 'judo show' abomination was now an integral part of dojo life and even taken to championship level at the highest level such as EJU championships side by side with kodokan kata.

    I cannot express how dangerous to judo education this new introduction is. It not only shows how out of touch the EJU is in terms of what constitutes judo it also, sadly, reflects how desperate some judoka are driven to medal in 'judo'. WE as forum members are concerned about this forum and the low numbers of postings and general membership. I would be an awful lot more concerned about the real world of judo and what is being taught in our dojo.

    I can imagine a judoka being attacked in the street and requesting the attacker to hang on a second while the judoka turned his MP3 player on for the music! Judo is a martial way, such theories run through the very blood of kodokan judo. Though we sacrifice killing-harming for growth and education we still learn the tools needed to harm should, God forbid, we ever need to use them.

    I cannot imagine where I have been the last few years as I have not even heard mention of this 'judo show'? Perhaps ignorance was bliss in this case.

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
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    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu May 23, 2013 1:27 am

    Hanon wrote:Important addendum. 22 05 13. When I posted my previous posts I had NO IDEA that 'judo show' was now part of the actual judo curriculum and even had championship status where EJU medals where awarded. I find this absurd. There is not enough dojo time these days to practice judo let alone practice to medal in 'judo show'. I must make my point clear. I am 100% against this 'judo show' being used at it is. A judo display to raise money is one thing to take it and integrate it into actual judo is beyond my comprehension. I would walk out of any championship where such a thing was being shown. I will never teach such a thing or be associated with it at any level.

    This was a question of a display in the appropriate occasion being used to entertain the public to show the lighter side of judo. This is NOT judo and to spend time practicing to medal in such an activity is simply absurd.

    I sincerely apologise for not comprehending the initial intent of the post and taking on board its true context. I only watched the first clip and very wrongly assumed this was 'just' a one of display that most dojo make every now and then to show at the end of some other event that judo has a lighter side. I can but repeaat I had zero knowledge that this 'judo show' abomination was now an integral part of dojo life and even taken to championship level at the highest level such as EJU championships side by side with kodokan kata.

    I cannot express how dangerous to judo education this new introduction is. It not only shows how out of touch the EJU is in terms of what constitutes judo it also, sadly, reflects how desperate some judoka are driven to medal in 'judo'. WE as forum members are concerned about this forum and the low numbers of postings and general membership. I would be an awful lot more concerned about the real world of judo and what is being taught in our dojo.

    I can imagine a judoka being attacked in the street and requesting the attacker to hang on a second while the judoka turned his MP3 player on for the music! Judo is a martial way, such theories run through the very blood of kodokan judo. Though we sacrifice killing-harming for growth and education we still learn the tools needed to harm should, God forbid, we ever need to use them.

    I cannot imagine where I have been the last few years as I have not even heard mention of this 'judo show'? Perhaps ignorance was bliss in this case.

    Mike

    Hanon-sensei,

    Thanks for the response. Yes, indeed those were some of the points I was trying to make. I usually have some very serious reasons as to why I post such things. It's some times difficult to do so on a forum, as there is a lot of room for misunderstanding and sometimes it is unfortunately thought that we are just trying to be critical or condescending. It honestly has nothing to do with it. We can chuckle about or mock Judo Show all we want, but as educators we have a far more important mission, namely teaching judo with regard to its objectives.

    I have for many years on this and the old forum tried to make a point that kata is an essential part of judo. When I write this, then obviously kata in this sense has nothing to do whatsoever with things as Judo Show is not kata despite it being sold that way. What it shows is that even some of leading governing bodies have absolutely no clue what kata is. I have written many times that people think that kata is something where you go stand on a tatami bow to a jury, then towards each other, and then demonstrate something to an audience and jury. That is not kata. Kata is not and has never been intended as a demonstration for others. The purpose of kata just like the purpose of randori is to improve your judo. Only in 1894 due to the opening of a new Kôdôkan Kanô had decided to invite dignitaries and as he was still in the progress to sell his judo to the world he needed a way to do so in the presence of those dignitaries in the small time window he was given. Thus, he decided to 'demonstrate' judo. That is how kata occasionally was actually demonstrated rather than just practised.

    Daigo once said: "there is no jûdô kata after Kanô-shihan". It means that in strict sense, there are only the following judo kata, with the emphasis on 'kata':

    - nage-no-kata
    - katame-no-kata
    - kime-no-kata (or its ancestor form shôbu-no-kata)
    - jû-no-kata
    - koshiki-no-kata
    - itsutsu-no-kata
    (-gô-no-kata)

    Those kata are set and can't be expanded in this view*. These are part of the fundamentals of jûdô.

    In this view neither Seiryoku zen'yô kokumin taiiku, nor Kôdôkan goshinjutsu, or Joshi jûdô goshinhô are 'kata', but only 'methods' or 'hô' rather than 'forms'.

    In this framework, no doubt there is no room for 'Judo show'. Judo show does not teach something that is essential to grasp judo and realize its principles. On the contrary it has little to do with those principles. One could argue that if it is spectacular enough that it will attract many more people to jûdô and thus contributes to realizing the principle of ji-ta kyô-ei. This is not sincere. One could equally distribute free marihuana among the jûdô audience and it will grow (no pun intended) too.

    It is, of course, very possible that someone who is very skilled in jûdô performs Jûdô Show, just like someone who is very skilled in jûdô might participate in growing or selling pot. That is little relevant. What is relevant is that promoting Jûdô Show perpetuates the misunderstand of what kata is about. It fuels, and in a justifiable way, every reason that can be thought of by those not understanding, what a joke jûdô and kata is. The BJJ-ers and MMA-ers now truly have very justifiable reasons to mock jûdô. Over the years the sportification of jûdô has caused it to more and more lose its budô character, not just in theory but also in practice. Jûdô is becoming puppet theater.

    So far Japan, has far stayed away from it, but it will be interesting to watch Japan. Japan is a rather odd case with regard to these things. When push comes to shove, Japan despite its principles has always sold out in the end. Remember how Japan was against weight classes in jûdô ? Yep, until Geesink started wiping the floor with Kaminaga and Cie. Remember how Japan stuck with the white stripe in the women's belt ? Yep, until the IJF Refereeing Rules prohibited it. Remember how Japan was against the yellow/blue tatami ? Go visit the Nichidai judo, go visit some dôjô in Nagoya, and see what now has been implemented in the All Japan Championships. Japan was against competing in kata, look now.

    Japan is against everything as long as it does not imply that they risk losing out on a gold medal. This has been proven time and time again. I've heard many times the claim by senior Japanese Officials at the Kôdôkan/AJJF that the IJF could do whatever it wanted and that the Kôdôkan/AJJF would not care and just do their stuff. These are nice words, but reality shows that this is clearly not the case. Japan has so far not shown it has the spine to stand up against the IJF, and I doubt it will, at least as long as the Vizer era continues and no Asian IJF President is put in place. Let's not forget that even in the AJU Japan does not hold the presidency or major posts aymore except for refereeing.

    _____________________
    *In wider sense there exist 10 Jûdô kata, which then include the others mentioned, and in very wide sense everything in jûdô that is determined before hand and not improvisation, is not randori but kata.


    _________________


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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    Hanon

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    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Hanon on Thu May 23, 2013 2:59 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Hanon wrote:Important addendum. 22 05 13. When I posted my previous posts I had NO IDEA that 'judo show' was now part of the actual judo curriculum and even had championship status where EJU medals where awarded. I find this absurd. There is not enough dojo time these days to practice judo let alone practice to medal in 'judo show'. I must make my point clear. I am 100% against this 'judo show' being used at it is. A judo display to raise money is one thing to take it and integrate it into actual judo is beyond my comprehension. I would walk out of any championship where such a thing was being shown. I will never teach such a thing or be associated with it at any level.

    This was a question of a display in the appropriate occasion being used to entertain the public to show the lighter side of judo. This is NOT judo and to spend time practicing to medal in such an activity is simply absurd.

    I sincerely apologise for not comprehending the initial intent of the post and taking on board its true context. I only watched the first clip and very wrongly assumed this was 'just' a one of display that most dojo make every now and then to show at the end of some other event that judo has a lighter side. I can but repeaat I had zero knowledge that this 'judo show' abomination was now an integral part of dojo life and even taken to championship level at the highest level such as EJU championships side by side with kodokan kata.

    I cannot express how dangerous to judo education this new introduction is. It not only shows how out of touch the EJU is in terms of what constitutes judo it also, sadly, reflects how desperate some judoka are driven to medal in 'judo'. WE as forum members are concerned about this forum and the low numbers of postings and general membership. I would be an awful lot more concerned about the real world of judo and what is being taught in our dojo.

    I can imagine a judoka being attacked in the street and requesting the attacker to hang on a second while the judoka turned his MP3 player on for the music! Judo is a martial way, such theories run through the very blood of kodokan judo. Though we sacrifice killing-harming for growth and education we still learn the tools needed to harm should, God forbid, we ever need to use them.

    I cannot imagine where I have been the last few years as I have not even heard mention of this 'judo show'? Perhaps ignorance was bliss in this case.

    Mike

    Hanon-sensei,

    Thanks for the response. Yes, indeed those were some of the points I was trying to make. I usually have some very serious reasons as to why I post such things. It's some times difficult to do so on a forum, as there is a lot of room for misunderstanding and sometimes it is unfortunately thought that we are just trying to be critical or condescending. It honestly has nothing to do with it. We can chuckle about or mock Judo Show all we want, but as educators we have a far more important mission, namely teaching judo with regard to its objectives.

    I have for many years on this and the old forum tried to make a point that kata is an essential part of judo. When I write this, then obviously kata in this sense has nothing to do whatsoever with things as Judo Show is not kata despite it being sold that way. What it shows is that even some of leading governing bodies have absolutely no clue what kata is. I have written many times that people think that kata is something where you go stand on a tatami bow to a jury, then towards each other, and then demonstrate something to an audience and jury. That is not kata. Kata is not and has never been intended as a demonstration for others. The purpose of kata just like the purpose of randori is to improve your judo. Only in 1894 due to the opening of a new Kôdôkan Kanô had decided to invite dignitaries and as he was still in the progress to sell his judo to the world he needed a way to do so in the presence of those dignitaries in the small time window he was given. Thus, he decided to 'demonstrate' judo. That is how kata occasionally was actually demonstrated rather than just practised.

    Daigo once said: "there is no jûdô kata after Kanô-shihan". It means that in strict sense, there are only the following judo kata, with the emphasis on 'kata':

    - nage-no-kata
    - katame-no-kata
    - kime-no-kata (or its ancestor form shôbu-no-kata)
    - jû-no-kata
    - koshiki-no-kata
    - itsutsu-no-kata
    (-gô-no-kata)

    Those kata are set and can't be expanded in this view*. These are part of the fundamentals of jûdô.

    In this view neither Seiryoku zen'yô kokumin taiiku, nor Kôdôkan goshinjutsu, or Joshi jûdô goshinhô are 'kata', but only 'methods' or 'hô' rather than 'forms'.

    In this framework, no doubt there is no room for 'Judo show'. Judo show does not teach something that is essential to grasp judo and realize its principles. On the contrary it has little to do with those principles. One could argue that if it is spectacular enough that it will attract many more people to jûdô and thus contributes to realizing the principle of ji-ta kyô-ei. This is not sincere. One could equally distribute free marihuana among the jûdô audience and it will grow (no pun intended) too.

    It is, of course, very possible that someone who is very skilled in jûdô performs Jûdô Show, just like someone who is very skilled in jûdô might participate in growing or selling pot. That is little relevant. What is relevant is that promoting Jûdô Show perpetuates the misunderstand of what kata is about. It fuels, and in a justifiable way, every reason that can be thought of by those not understanding, what a joke jûdô and kata is. The BJJ-ers and MMA-ers now truly have very justifiable reasons to mock jûdô. Over the years the sportification of jûdô has caused it to more and more lose its budô character, not just in theory but also in practice. Jûdô is becoming puppet theater.

    So far Japan, has far stayed away from it, but it will be interesting to watch Japan. Japan is a rather odd case with regard to these things. When push comes to shove, Japan despite its principles has always sold out in the end. Remember how Japan was against weight classes in jûdô ? Yep, until Geesink started wiping the floor with Kaminaga and Cie. Remember how Japan stuck with the white stripe in the women's belt ? Yep, until the IJF Refereeing Rules prohibited it. Remember how Japan was against the yellow/blue tatami ? Go visit the Nichidai judo, go visit some dôjô in Nagoya, and see what now has been implemented in the All Japan Championships. Japan was against competing in kata, look now.

    Japan is against everything as long as it does not imply that they risk losing out on a gold medal. This has been proven time and time again. I've heard many times the claim by senior Japanese Officials at the Kôdôkan/AJJF that the IJF could do whatever it wanted and that the Kôdôkan/AJJF would not care and just do their stuff. These are nice words, but reality shows that this is clearly not the case. Japan has so far not shown it has the spine to stand up against the IJF, and I doubt it will, at least as long as the Vizer era continues and no Asian IJF President is put in place. Let's not forget that even in the AJU Japan does not hold the presidency or major posts aymore except for refereeing.

    _____________________
    *In wider sense there exist 10 Jûdô kata, which then include the others mentioned, and in very wide sense everything in jûdô that is determined before hand and not improvisation, is not randori but kata.

    Perhaps this 'Judo show' Is more significant that one may initially imagine? I have only just learned of it so my head is still swirling around trying to rationalise the irrational.

    Judo dojo have ways of teaching, there has always been a number of requirements in learning and teaching judo. Reigi, ukemi, happo no kuzushi, randori, gokyu, kaeshi waza, kata, shiai, renrokuwaza, renrakuwaza, uchimi, nage komi, ne waza, nage waza, atemi waza and so forth and so on. When I realised there is now part of the dojo judo curriculum called judo show I was truly surprised. I still cant imagine where this came from nor understand why?

    Is this now going to be part of an NGB's grading syllabus? Where are these people learning this? Who are the teachers?

    WHO are the judges? What qualifications do they have or need? Music? Dance choreography? Style, presentation, I cannot imagine?

    I do accept that some very skilled judoka may partake in such a show. I mentioned after seeing the initial clip, the one where I failed to grasp the gist, that the judoka had a decent teacher and knew judo, I then went on to add, in a completely innocent way that I would have shot the dance teacher. I had zero idea that this was now seriously classed as part of judo to the point that one can medal in judo show at international level?

    I recall vividly on the old forum a couple of middle kyu ranks posting their rendition of the ju no kata. It was a very decent rendition. As that thread developed it became clear that the two judoka only practiced kata at the expense of all other aspects of judo like randori and shiai due to time restrictions on the dojo opening hours etc. Such an imbalance in ones learning and practice is a danger.

    We both spend hours posting and debating things judo and I have had to accept that this is 2013 and that there are simply not the amount of judo dojo open that there where when we where learning judo. I have had to re evaluate my expectations of other posters and learn that time is a great factor in how or what many of the new pupils to judo will learn. Some in the USA have to travel several hours for one hours practice as there are no local judo dojo.

    A classic example of this was the debates regarding crash mats. Many teachers now use them as the pupils are not sufficiently versed in ukemi due to time restrictions in practicing ukemi. Now it wont be crash mats we need be concerned with its going to be trying to find a dojo that does not practice to music? Body combat does this and that practice is also absurd. Body combat, in this country, is rather a con, pupils where gi with coloured obi then practice aerobics in the semi style of some kata or solo uchikomi to the beat of music. It DOES help pupils maintain a healthy body but why the need for the martial aspect?
    Now judo is going to do the same thing, its not even original?!

    Many of the old judo posters are now involved in some way with BJJ, including myself.

    I still attend several budo seminars a month and see less and less judoka present if at all. I listen to the way other budoka identify judo. I would have zero response to any budoka who asked me to explain the concept of 'judo show'.

    IF judoka have the time to spend with practicing judo show how is it they cannot spend that time learning and practicing judo?

    I repeat CK sensei, this is new to me so have a long way to go before I am able to make some sort of sense from this development. I have so many questions. How and on what criteria is such a judo show marked?

    Who in the EJU came up with this idea and why? You have clearly hit the nail on the head when you wrote it shows an absolute lack of understanding not only with regard to judo but kata and what kano founded at the kodokan.

    I also agree, its just a matter of time before the Japanese support such events. I have not held the kodokan in much regard since my visits there in the early 70's. I gave up decades ago looking in that direction for some sort of leadership. I am more disgusted with the kodokan than I am with the IJF. The IJF have mitigating circumstances for there ways, what is the Kodokan's excuse?

    I see so many posts here regarding the IJF rules and how these rules will destroy judo. I have never partaken in one of those threads as my response would not be well received, namely the Unions like the EJU and the IJF can only have as much influence in our dojo as we allow them. I have NEVER once in my entire judo teaching career changed what I teach as the IJF change its rules. I was teaching two ippon judo when I started and two ippon judo when I retired last year. Koka and Yuko where never even heard of in my dojo.
    I was still teaching the full gokyo and still do on seminars. It is absurd to allow a group that caters for .0001% of the world judo population to affect the other 99.999% who pay for it and practice judo.
    Each country has choices, each championship president has choices. There is zero to prevent open championships from taking place. So the IJF ban this and that? They are not the fools, the fools are those who accept being dictated to in the dojo the members pay for and the teachers teach there for free.
    The IJF nor EJU employ teachers in local dojo so ignore these dictators and simply teach and practice judo.

    Now we are going to see these same dictatorial judo knowledge less morons introduce judo show.....I would respectfully suggest to all judoka to look at this for what it is and ignore it. Have nothing to do with it. Prey tell, what will NGB's do if they receive a command from on high that the IJF are now going to have a judo striptease show then a judo bake a cake contest. Are we going to see strippers in the dojo and all go out and purchase cookers and cheif's hats When are the grass roots in judo going to stop the tail waging the dog?

    Judo show is dangerous to the survival of judo. What's coming next? Don't you feel redundant?

    Mike


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    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu May 23, 2013 3:51 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Who in the EJU came up with this idea and why?

    I don't know for sure, but it had to be approved by the EJU Kata Commission, and the EJU does not directly communicate with individual jûdôka. The communicate with 'countries', which in practice means with the national governing body's president or secretary, and with those people who get into one of their committees, which as a process is always accomplished via/via and who-knows-who without open advertisement Anyhow, I speculate that the idea of including this event was pushed by either or both France and Belgium.

    As to the why, best thing to do is to find the exact wording of the EJU. I have seen it. I think it appeared on their website at the time they introduced it.

    By the way, there is already a new event being explored, called 'Jûdô Taisô'.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu May 23, 2013 5:23 am

    Judo Taiso and Judo Show are all about the popularization of money. It's part of what I imagine is teh IJF's "business model" for Judo. BillC has pointed out that the IJF is basically in the "sports entertainment" business.

    Judo Taiso is a way to get more parents and other adults (apparently what we might call "soccer moms" in the US, not sure of equivalent in Europe)involved in Judo. We tried such an idea at our dojo, advertised it as a judo based exercise class for adults that was aimed mostly at parents of kids in Judo. It flopped due mostly to busy schedules (lack of participation), and adults liking to have 1.5 hours free from their kids instead of working out.

    It seems to me in Europe, with it's large dojo, professional judo teachers, "judo taiso" might be a viable part of a dojo business. I know that Gerald Lafon, in San Diego, at one time had noon hour judo classes...which is something you can do when you run a dojo full time, rather than part time volunteer like most in the USA at least.

    The Judo show is just more advertising, and something kata like that isn't really kata, something to get more participation and more entries (and thus more money)at kata tournaments.

    Personally, I think judo itself has plenty to offer in terms of physical education or just working out. But it's difficult as a part time non-professional judo teacher who works full time and drives 40 minutes one way to teach Judo classes in another country, to have time to design and teach specialized judo classes for adults who want to get into shape and learn new skills. In a different setting (Europe...France and Belgium, with fairly high numbers of Judoka (France especially) and professional teachers, to take advantage of the judo taiso and judo show "markets".





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    genetic judoka

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    Re: And then now for something completely different: the Judo Show !!

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu May 23, 2013 5:50 am

    some have suggested to me in the past, after seeing the high intensity full body workouts I put people through in the competition class, that I start offering a judo-fit class for non judoka who want to get in shape. it would be a way to make a bit of money doing something I enjoy (and by that I mean yelling at people). to be honest I haven't completely written off the idea yet...
    the idea would be that after a few weeks I point out to them that if they're already doing the "hard stuff" with no problems, they might as well do the fun stuff too, and all the sudden our regular judo class will have new members.


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