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    The IJF are destroying judo

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    Jonesy

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    The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:43 am

    Thanks to the IJF and their wisdom, the following Gokyo and Shinmeisho No Waza techniques are now banned from organised championship judo. The inevitable consequence is that, in short order, they will be lost to judo. This is a disgrace and the IJF are sacrificing Kodokan judo on the false altar of greater public appeal. The techniques are

    Gokyo
    Sukui Nage
    Utsuri Goshi (borderline - due to risk of holding uke below the belt line)
    Kata Guruma
    Obi Otoshi
    Ushiro Goshi (borderline - due to risk of holding uke below the belt line)
    Ura Nage (borderline - due to risk of holding uke below the belt line)
    Hikikomi Gaeshi


    Shinmeisho No Waza
    Morote Gari
    Kuchiki Taoshi
    Kibisu Gaeshi
    Kani Basami
    Kawazu Gake

    I would encourage as many clubs/dojo as possible to turn their back on the IJF and seek out their national independent judo body so the totality of Kodokan judo can be preserved.
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    Taiobroshi

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Taiobroshi on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:08 am

    Why do you list hikikomi gaeshi...?

    Regardless, there's no way to mandate a consistently "satisfactory" shiai experience at high level. I use "satisfactory" to signify a contest to see who has the best judo, expressed as who can produce an ippon first. When there is a disconnect between "having the best judo" and "producing an ippon," that's where we run into tactics which no longer accord with the spirit and philosophy of the martial art. I'm not going to pretend I understand the whole of Kano's vision, but actions like running out of bounds, stalling in newaza so the referee can stand you up, and butt-scooting were definitely not part of it. It's not so much the techniques that create the problems in shiai as it is the context under which they are used. I think the forum members all agree on this and, if we were to hold him in a submission hold, Marius Vizer would agree as well.

    So what's the solution? The IJF seems to think that by adding more rules, everyone will suddenly play like Neil Adams (with the aim of making shiai "more spectacular"). This doesn't work because, and I encourage you to try it, if you take 10 minutes to think about the current rules you can come up with a handful of ways that you would be able to stall or force penalties on your opponent. If you can do that in 10 minutes, imagine what a dedicated coach, whose job is to make people win, could come up with.

    While I say that "mandating" good judo is impossible, we can "encourage" it in our respective clubs. Politics notwithstanding having an excess of proper judoka who can make their way up into high positions is the only way things are ever going to change. Teaching students that shiai isn't paradigm of judo allows them to take an expansive view of their judo experience and they will want to spread good judo to the world, as opposed to stopping it after they are no longer able to compete or their get their black belt. Nobody is going to bat an eye if a few clubs "turn away" from the IJF. In big countries with a strong judo culture there is excess of people with the exact same skill level who, if your top players drop out of principle, would jump at a chance to compete in big tournaments they wouldn't be able to otherwise. The IJF, to my knowledge, plays a large role in encouraging and supporting the various continental unions to bring judo smaller countries (such as Madagascar, where I'm from) which is valuable towards the completion of Kano's vision. They must also have a strong network of lawyers and people willing to travel to advocate for them, such that creating an equivalently powerful organization with a different rule set from the ground up is not feasible.

    In short, encourage good judo on the club level, so those people eventually become coaches, referees, and big names that will drive the "judo community," as in the judoka and clubs who choose to make shiai a focus of their experience, in a better direction. I also don't see the need to make everybody do randori under an approximation of IJF rules, since the percentage of people who compete in the average club is low. Just because I get caught with an illegal technique, doesn't mean that that was only throw that could have been used in the situation. People just need to work harder to learn during randori!

    -Ben

    radzfman

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by radzfman on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:22 am

    Unfortunately the IJF has significant influence on what is taught in clubs around the world.
    I agree with Jonesy that the IJF on a whole has been terrible for Judo. I just wish it were kicked out of the Olympics and all this nonsense about rules making it easier for refs would be tossed out too.
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    BillC

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by BillC on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:53 am

    You're ruining Christmas!

    For those that like an apt, but distant metaphor ...



    Boy that was fun!
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    Q mystic

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Q mystic on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:21 am

    Jonesy wrote:Thanks to the IJF and their wisdom, the following Gokyo and Shinmeisho No Waza techniques are now banned from organised championship judo. The inevitable consequence is that, in short order, they will be lost to judo. This is a disgrace and the IJF are sacrificing Kodokan judo on the false altar of greater public appeal. The techniques are

    Gokyo
    Sukui Nage
    Utsuri Goshi (borderline - due to risk of holding uke below the belt line)
    Kata Guruma
    Obi Otoshi
    Ushiro Goshi (borderline - due to risk of holding uke below the belt line)
    Ura Nage (borderline - due to risk of holding uke below the belt line)
    Hikikomi Gaeshi


    Shinmeisho No Waza
    Morote Gari
    Kuchiki Taoshi
    Kibisu Gaeshi
    Kani Basami
    Kawazu Gake

    I would encourage as many clubs/dojo as possible to turn their back on the IJF and seek out their national independent judo body so the totality of Kodokan judo can be preserved.

    Most of them have been allowed for years in mma and wrestling and they didnt work for judoka. Lose them. Thats one kinda nice thing and it'll make your seoinage better.

    I dont believe they are opined to public opinion tho. That seems rediculous. Who, that isnt a fan of judo, would actually even make an opinion on it and the ones that are fans certainly would not favor this. Unless their vote counts as 50.lol
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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:54 am

    Fine.....they are "Banned from Shiai".......

    BUT, they are STILL PART OF THE GOKYO and SHINMEISHO,

    and as such MUST be taught to all students of Judo.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:25 am

    Steve Leadbeater wrote:Fine.....they are "Banned from Shiai".......

    BUT, they are STILL PART OF THE GOKYO and SHINMEISHO,

    and as such MUST be taught to all students of Judo.
    I agree but >90% teachers are only interested in medals and competition and will take the view that it is a waste of time to teach anything that can not be used in contest. Soon, the next generation of coaches will not have been taught these techniques at all and so they will fade away. It bet it is not too long before some federation creates their win Nage-no-kata where the now "banned" techniques will have been substituted for something else. I bet these techniques will also vanish from promotion syllabi soon too.


    Last edited by Jonesy on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Q mystic

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Q mystic on Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:53 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    Steve Leadbeater wrote:Fine.....they are "Banned from Shiai".......

    BUT, they are STILL PART OF THE GOKYO and SHINMEISHO,

    and as such MUST be taught to all students of Judo.[i][u]
    I agree but >90% teachers are only interested in medals and competition and will take the view that it is a waste of time to teach anything that can not be used in contest.

    yeah but what'll be the result that matters? Judo memberships down huge but older folk will still join. The ones that do get this game down will be extraordinary throwers. Think sumo. Without 70% of the comp.=( I hear you.
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    Ricebale

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:45 pm

    Gokyo
    Sukui Nage
    Utsuri Goshi (borderline - due to risk of holding uke below the belt line)
    Kata Guruma
    Obi Otoshi
    Ushiro Goshi (borderline - due to risk of holding uke below the belt line)
    Ura Nage (borderline - due to risk of holding uke below the belt line)
    Hikikomi Gaeshi


    Shinmeisho No Waza
    Morote Gari
    Kuchiki Taoshi
    Kibisu Gaeshi
    Kani Basami
    Kawazu Gake

    I have crossed trained a bit so have a view on how different throwing arts approach these techniques. If coaching Judo for fighting all of the above techniques have viability and about half of them are bread and butter fighting techniques. If however I was coaching potentials for the olympic trials I would probably take into account my thoughts below:

    IMO from the Shinmeisho No Waza any Judo Dan grade coach in my country under 30 years old does not know how to do these techniques anyway, they have been dying a steady death, however any high level Judo guy over 50 I've trained with seems to have these techniques at a high level. So I think they have been dying for some time now anyway.

    Funnily enough any Freestyle wrestling coach can do the first three Shinmeisho No Waza in their sleep and most wrestling athletes can do the other 2 after some training, particularly the Kawazu Gake. Same as in Sambo. I believe the Kani Basami and Kawazu Gake were banned for safety reasons but IMO you can't do Sambo/Wrestling without knowing these throws particularly the Kawazu Gake (ie grapevine).

    The corresponding techniques which are mostly counters to leg grab attacks are most at risk, so yeah the ability to counter with timing and mojo only comes from facing committed and skilled attacks, kind of an extinction via the food source dying rather than extinction via deliberate extermination, same effect in the end though. Sumi Gaeshi and Hikikomi Gaeshi both fall into this category however Hikikomi Gaeshi uses the over the back grip which makes it unpracticle to learn for that reason alone.

    I think the Ushiro Goshi & Ura Nage in a modified form off the belt grab under the new rules will make a serious comeback as a counter to most turning throws and also as a direct attack itself as the best way to stuff these pick ups once in motion are to either leg grab or grapevine, both are now banned under IJF.

    Obi Otoshi I think is an interesting one, potential for use as a counter to an opponent who positions themselves in such a way as to leave the grab open but it's too easy to slip into sukui nage and get disqualified.

    I do note that even the newer freestyle judo and most other non-ijf bodies do not allow Kani Basami and Kawazu Gake

    Just my thoughts and in essence I agree with the OP that techiques will disappear.

    Cheers
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    Q mystic

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Q mystic on Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:19 pm

    Ricebale wrote:
    Gokyo
    Sukui Nage
    Utsuri Goshi (borderline - due to risk of holding uke below the belt line)
    Kata Guruma
    Obi Otoshi
    Ushiro Goshi (borderline - due to risk of holding uke below the belt line)
    Ura Nage (borderline - due to risk of holding uke below the belt line)
    Hikikomi Gaeshi


    Shinmeisho No Waza
    Morote Gari
    Kuchiki Taoshi
    Kibisu Gaeshi
    Kani Basami
    Kawazu Gake

    I have crossed trained a bit so have a view on how different throwing arts approach these techniques. If coaching Judo for fighting all of the above techniques have viability and about half of them are bread and butter fighting techniques.

    Cheers

    For sure. They seemed like they could have also been called bread and butter techs in judo as well. Even judoka vs Sambo, bjj and wrestlers. Thats where these 'techs' from judo scratch. Similar with sambo and maybe bjj in crossover. But how many are/were seen from judoka in mma? Add sambo and bjj to that as well. Maybe moreso for the latter due to judoka burying everyone with typically straight forward throws or trips.

    For instance, Judo didnt have a decent tourny style kata guruma, because take a look at them. You had control of the lower pant leg, even lower thigh pantleg. You needed less technical ability to score with it. In fact, you could lodge in HALF-WAY and with that amount of control, roll yourself forward and over, effectively scoring. I did see kata guruma work fine that way or better in judo but they couldnt do shiot outside of judo with it. Sambo seems much, much better but still very rare.

    Say, kibisu gaeshi. I was ok with that in judo. Pretty good actally and kuchiki taoshi as well. I couldnt do beans with them if fella wore shorts. A mile away. Sambo guys could tho, and some wrestlers too, I'm sure. They had/were forced to do proper tech because they couldn't just lazy-like take the pant which secured the comparatively unbreakable grip and the strength of the few inches it allowed. They had to commit.

    I did, however, smoke fellas with seoinage. And these new guys are going to be better than ever with it and everything else that has been working.lol Vs tuff other fighters that is. And, I can't see a judoka resorting to their kata-guruma to take a bjjer, or a wrestler down. Won't happen.

    What has worked for judo is still there. What hasn't is gone.

    Ura-nage? Incredible. How has that not helped judoka outside of judo? Because we own. Very Happy
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    Hane-goshi

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Hane-goshi on Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:16 pm

    IJF is killing the judo that was taught to me. But, not without the help from USA Judo, USJF or USJA in this country. My sensei encouraged us to participate in shiai as a learning tool to help us progress in developing our Judo skills. Now-a-day the instuctors (not all)uses their students as a recruiting tool for their schools. They say I have XXX number of champions, join my school. But, are they teaching Judo? The 3 major Judo organizations in this country is not helping to promote the Kodokan Judo. In the application form for USJA, they ask for the name of the head coach of the school, not sensei or teacher. In their directory of dojo, they list the name of the head instructors as head coaches. That's one of the main problem with Judo in this country, coaches do not teach basic Judo. I have new students called be coach but, I tell them to called be sensei because I am teaching them. IJF have no traditions, no senseis, no students and no history. Kodokan may not be the answers for the future of Judo but, they do have traditions, senseis, students, and a great history.
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    finarashi

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by finarashi on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:56 pm

    To me one of the pointless bits of this argument is that Judo as a sport, represented by IJF should promote something else than sport Judo! To me the Judo encompasses more than is done in IJF competitions e.g. self-defence. Of the time I have spent with Judo, minority has been competing, coaching or administrating competitive Judo.

    For some reasons many posters seem to think that IJF should do something else. I agree that we see people writing in newspapers that e.g. football should encourage minorities, promote healthy lifestyles and help in education. Most pages (even in the same paper) are devoted to stories of footballers (and their partners) behaviour last weekened. Sports is part of entertainment business. Now we hear pleas that college athletes should get contracts and be paid millions to participate in sports.

    So don't blame solely IJF. Blaim also the general idea that sports if for people in couches to watch and pay for. .. and that sports should be developed to get more exposure (remember X-games).


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    Jonesy

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:09 pm

    I guess there is a degree of country to country and club to club variation, but for almost all, certainly in the UK judo = competition and competition rules dictate judo content.

    There is noone to blame other than the IJF as far as I can see.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:15 pm

    Jonesy wrote:I guess there is a degree of country to country and club to club variation, but for almost all, certainly in the UK judo = competition and competition rules dictate judo content.

    There is noone to blame other than the IJF as far as I can see.



    The above is an example as to why I think backwards throws will make a comeback. with the inabaility to now change levels and go for the legs the next logical counter speciality should be to throw backwards to gain the surprise, especially as the throws can be done off an O-Goshi style grip which most likely would be encouraged by refs.

    Cheers

    degster

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by degster on Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:36 am

    I agree with Jonesy and am greatly concerned at the negative influence the IJF is having and will continue to have on the teaching of Kodokan judo
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    BillC

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by BillC on Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:14 am

    finarashi wrote:To me one of the pointless bits of this argument is that Judo as a sport, represented by IJF should promote something else than sport Judo! To me the Judo encompasses more than is done in IJF competitions e.g. self-defence. Of the time I have spent with Judo, minority has been competing, coaching or administrating competitive Judo.

    For some reasons many posters seem to think that IJF should do something else. I agree that we see people writing in newspapers that e.g. football should encourage minorities, promote healthy lifestyles and help in education. Most pages (even in the same paper) are devoted to stories of footballers (and their partners) behaviour last weekened. Sports is part of entertainment business. Now we hear pleas that college athletes should get contracts and be paid millions to participate in sports.

    So don't blame solely IJF. Blaim also the general idea that sports if for people in couches to watch and pay for. .. and that sports should be developed to get more exposure (remember X-games).

    The difference is that in the case of judo things are proceeding backwards relative to most sports. In other words, not a sport seeking social relevance, rather a social objective now in search of a sports audience. If I trust our historians like NBK, this is not a recent trend. Due to a combination of events and improved communication in the internet age it probably is just dawning on people.

    I am with you however, the IJF is part of a sports entertainment business, and they are doing their job from that perspective ... sports entertainment business and all that implies.
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    Judo Dad

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Judo Dad on Thu May 16, 2013 11:46 am

    Check out the WJF (Europe) competition rules and enter the discussion at:
    https://www.facebook.com/AustralasianJudo


    Gus

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Gus on Thu May 16, 2013 9:29 pm

    I agree with you Jonesy - but unfortunately a lot of funding for Judo is with an aim to getting people prepped for the Olympics - sadly I dont think a few posts on an internet forum will change the flow .... I dont know what the answers are.......
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    JudoStu

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by JudoStu on Thu May 16, 2013 11:05 pm

    It took me a long time to pass my blue belt (2nd Kyu) grading due to the fact that most of the techniques in the syllabus are now illegal and hence my club does not really teach them.
    I doubt I’ll ever do a morote-gari again, so if I ever become a coach I would not be able to teach this technique


    jkw

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by jkw on Fri May 17, 2013 9:36 pm

    I realized that since the 'banning' of leg-grabbing techniques, I've been using them much more often during randori. Perhaps it's just more in the forefront of my mind right now.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat May 18, 2013 2:53 am

    jkw wrote:I realized that since the 'banning' of leg-grabbing techniques, I've been using them much more often during randori. Perhaps it's just more in the forefront of my mind right now.

    LOL,I started doing leg picks again. My students are like "Hansokumake" and I reply "I'm not competing anymore, live with it"!

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    Udon

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Udon on Sat May 18, 2013 1:42 pm

    Good for you Ben Reinhardt ! I agree with your attitude and practice.

    Chilli

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Chilli on Sun May 19, 2013 2:18 am

    Ricebale wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:I guess there is a degree of country to country and club to club variation, but for almost all, certainly in the UK judo = competition and competition rules dictate judo content.

    There is noone to blame other than the IJF as far as I can see.



    The above is an example as to why I think backwards throws will make a comeback. with the inabaility to now change levels and go for the legs the next logical counter speciality should be to throw backwards to gain the surprise, especially as the throws can be done off an O-Goshi style grip which most likely would be encouraged by refs.

    Cheers
    There were some very good and spectacular ura-nage ippon amongst the lightweights at the British Open last weekend.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue May 21, 2013 2:18 am

    Udon wrote:Good for you Ben Reinhardt ! I agree with your attitude and practice.

    It makes them try harder, that's for sure!
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: The IJF are destroying judo

    Post by genetic judoka on Tue May 21, 2013 3:00 am

    now that I've completely given up on the idea of my future as a competitive judoka on any kind of meaningful level (that's not to say I won't compete anymore but I know the olympics are nowhere in my future) I've stopped worrying about how the IJF's rules are changing. I'll play from a cross grip for extended periods of time (offensively, not defensively), I'll do whatever form of safe grip break suits my fancy, and I'll go for leg grabs when I want some variety. I do judo. my head sensei and I had a discussion after the most recent rounds of rule changes, and we agree that in that dojo we teach judo. not modern judo, not classical judo, just judo. and (almost) all of it.


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