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    IJF outlawed techniques

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    Jonesy

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    IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:51 pm



    Bring them all back I say.
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    rjohnston411

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by rjohnston411 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:24 am

    Except for perhaps Kawazu gake and Kani Basami, I fully agree.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:35 am

    Kani Basami is fine if thought properly. Kawazu Gake features regularly in sumo with minimal injuries.


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    judoratt

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by judoratt on Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:21 am

    How many of these are you teaching in your dojo today?
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    rjohnston411

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by rjohnston411 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:09 am

    As you say, if taught properly, no issue. How many can properly teach them? I don't want my ankle snapped by a poorly executed kani basami because of enthusiasm but bad teaching.

    I do like kani, I think it looks pretty cool.
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    BillC

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by BillC on Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:02 am

    judoratt wrote: How many of these are you teaching in your dojo today?

    6

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by beyondgrappling on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:16 pm

    I think in the end the sport of Judo has negative and positive aspects. And so do other arts such as BJJ, Sambo, Judo, Karate, boxing etc why not start your own style of martial art and see how you go marketing a style no-one has ever heard of.

    In the end you teach to what your students want. If they want to win the Olympics then teach them IJF Judo, if they want to learn no gi - teach them no-gi and if they want to learn the Kodokan Judo then teach them Kodokan (or freestyle) Judo.

    I don't see a problem with people learning all styles of Judo but in the end the sport will dictate the rules, techniques and strategies used by the competitor in any given time.
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    Ricebale

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by Ricebale on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:43 pm

    Jonesy wrote:Kani Basami is fine if thought properly. Kawazu Gake features regularly in sumo with minimal injuries.

    Both of those techniques were removed from Judo due to political reasons wheh Japan had a lot more influence in Judo IMO. Kani Basami because it injured a Japanese hero by a foreigner and the Kawazu Gake because the grapevine favours wrestling influenced countries. The blame was put on injuries but in wrestling and sambo both of these techniques do not cause a high level of injuries in themselves compared to any other technique.

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by beyondgrappling on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:51 pm

    [quote="Ricebale"]
    Jonesy wrote:Kani Basami is fine if thought properly. Kawazu Gake features regularly in sumo with minimal injuries.

    Kawazu Gake because the grapevine favours wrestling influenced countries. /quote]

    They don't ban a technique because it favors wrestling influenced countries.
    they banned Kawazu Gake because it endangers both Uke and Tori depending on which way each of you react.

    Also on the Kani Basami note at the recent fit expo in Sydney Australia a guy had both ACL's torn in a submission grappling tournament due to a Kani Basami - further proof of why it should be banned in all forms of competition. Especially if your work requires you to be able to run/walk twist or turn - and when your profession is Judo then yes of course it should stay banned.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by Ricebale on Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:15 pm

    They don't ban a technique because it favors wrestling influenced countries.
    they banned Kawazu Gake because it endangers both Uke and Tori depending on which way each of you react.

    yeah they do, stop being silly. Morote Gari and kata garuma are more current examples. Go back to the event where Kani Basami was banned following the injury and which nations was it between, it was a political ban.

    Tai Otoshi and uchi mata also hurt peoples knees and a lot more often
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    judoratt

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by judoratt on Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:43 pm

    rjohnston411 wrote:As you say, if taught properly, no issue. How many can properly teach them? I don't want my ankle snapped by a poorly executed kani basami because of enthusiasm but bad teaching.

    I do like kani, I think it looks pretty cool.

    I have seen it done well before it was banned. In 1986 I had a ugly Tib Fib break you could hear it snap two mats away from the top of the stands. Shocked Shocked
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    rjohnston411

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by rjohnston411 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:03 am

    judoratt wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:As you say, if taught properly, no issue. How many can properly teach them? I don't want my ankle snapped by a poorly executed kani basami because of enthusiasm but bad teaching.

    I do like kani, I think it looks pretty cool.

    I have seen it done well before it was banned. In 1986 I had a ugly Tib Fib break you could hear it snap two mats away from the top of the stands. Shocked Shocked

    *wince*

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    Q mystic

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by Q mystic on Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:46 am

    Kibisu-gaeshi, kuchiki-taioshi, morote-gari...in the vid, they were all well done grabbing the leg but in tournies it seems like the vast majority are attempted grabbing the pant. I think if techs were done more the way demoed here, they'd be just fine in comp.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed May 01, 2013 7:47 am

    Kawazu Gake has been illegal in shiai ever since I started Judo in 1980.

    Kawazu (grapevining) does not equal Kawazu Gake, which is a separate throw.


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    BillC

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by BillC on Wed May 01, 2013 8:10 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Kawazu Gake has been illegal in shiai ever since I started Judo in 1980.

    Kawazu (grapevining) does not equal Kawazu Gake, which is a separate throw.

    And yet there was that guy ... at least that is what I heard ... who was busting one knee after another at the first World Masters in Australia ... including someone from my hometown .... anyone there who could report on that?
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    Dutch Budo

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by Dutch Budo on Wed May 01, 2013 11:53 pm

    In my own classes I allow all kinds of throws except for kani basani. Ive seen it go badly a few too many times. In the hands of a profesional high level competitor there may not be so many problems, in the hands of over enthusiastic beginners, its just too dangerous. (disclaimer im teaching BJJ and Grappling)


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu May 02, 2013 2:54 am

    judoratt wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:As you say, if taught properly, no issue. How many can properly teach them? I don't want my ankle snapped by a poorly executed kani basami because of enthusiasm but bad teaching.

    I do like kani, I think it looks pretty cool.

    I have seen it done well before it was banned. In 1986 I had a ugly Tib Fib break you could hear it snap two mats away from the top of the stands. Shocked Shocked

    I've seen it used on purpose to take out an opponent who was winning. More than once...

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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu May 02, 2013 2:58 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Kawazu Gake has been illegal in shiai ever since I started Judo in 1980.

    Kawazu (grapevining) does not equal Kawazu Gake, which is a separate throw.

    And yet there was that guy ... at least that is what I heard ... who was busting one knee after another at the first World Masters in Australia ... including someone from my hometown .... anyone there who could report on that?

    I haven't heard of that (those) incidents. Kawazu was making a comeback for a while in such throws as Ouchi Gari, Uchi Mata. I'm not up enough on the lates interpretations of the rules to know whether or not once can still use it in such a fashion.

    In any case, regardless of technique, if the referees think someone purposely injured another, they can HSM him for it. Not that they would these days. It's pretty obvious when someone uses kawazu to put pressure on the knee purposely.

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    BillC

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by BillC on Thu May 02, 2013 8:08 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    I haven't heard of that (those) incidents. Kawazu was making a comeback for a while in such throws as Ouchi Gari, Uchi Mata. I'm not up enough on the lates interpretations of the rules to know whether or not once can still use it in such a fashion.

    Well you know Randy Hale, right? I think you are in the same division maybe, or close to it. He came back from Oz all wrapped up as I recall and noted there was some Japanese guy that took out two or three knees exactly the same way. Wasn't DQ'd even though the rule was in effect for the IJF.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu May 02, 2013 9:09 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    I haven't heard of that (those) incidents. Kawazu was making a comeback for a while in such throws as Ouchi Gari, Uchi Mata. I'm not up enough on the lates interpretations of the rules to know whether or not once can still use it in such a fashion.

    Well you know Randy Hale, right? I think you are in the same division maybe, or close to it. He came back from Oz all wrapped up as I recall and noted there was some Japanese guy that took out two or three knees exactly the same way. Wasn't DQ'd even though the rule was in effect for the IJF.

    I know who he is but was never in his division in Masters. More like judoratt's buddy who I never could beat.

    So he was using a kawazu and breaking knees. Ugh. Refs must have been ignorant or asleep.

    I don't particularly like kawazu. It's one of those things in the category of "ok if done right", like Kani Basame. One of my students started experimenting with it before rule changes, and I told him not to do it to me in randori as I could feel my knees tweeking. The margin for error is kinda small.




    annmaria

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    Ban tai otoshi

    Post by annmaria on Mon May 06, 2013 8:24 pm

    I had my knee ruined when I was 17 from a tai otoshi - six knee operations and one complete knee replacement later, I'm willing to sign the petition to ban tai otoshi!

    I know two people who had their knees ruined from DOING tai otoshi. They were in the throw in the middle of practice and someone else was thrown on / ran into their legs.

    Ban tai otoshi ! In fact, all of judo is pretty dangerous if you ask me. Only the kuchi waza is safe
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    finarashi

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by finarashi on Mon May 06, 2013 10:32 pm

    annmaria wrote:I had my knee ruined when I was 17 from a tai otoshi - six knee operations and one complete knee replacement later, I'm willing to sign the petition to ban tai otoshi!

    I know two people who had their knees ruined from DOING tai otoshi. They were in the throw in the middle of practice and someone else was thrown on / ran into their legs.

    Ban tai otoshi ! In fact, all of judo is pretty dangerous if you ask me. Only the kuchi waza is safe
    Try kuchi waza here and the response will leave you a mental wreck for decades to come.

    You can be invalidized from feedback.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue May 07, 2013 6:14 am

    finarashi wrote:
    annmaria wrote:I had my knee ruined when I was 17 from a tai otoshi - six knee operations and one complete knee replacement later, I'm willing to sign the petition to ban tai otoshi!

    I know two people who had their knees ruined from DOING tai otoshi. They were in the throw in the middle of practice and someone else was thrown on / ran into their legs.

    Ban tai otoshi ! In fact, all of judo is pretty dangerous if you ask me. Only the kuchi waza is safe
    Try kuchi waza here and the response will leave you a mental wreck for decades to come.

    You can be invalidized from feedback.

    More like the lack of validation during feedback is the problem...
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    Allen

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by Allen on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:56 pm

    judoratt wrote:  How many of these are you teaching in your dojo today?
    we learn exactly ZERO of these in Judo class.  My sensei does not teach throws that are not legal in competition.  

    However, I have had the opportunity to learn *some* of these while doing brazillian jiu jitsu.

    That makes me a bit sad.

    /edit: I take that back, we did study kata-guruma (and ashi garami) due to our recent incorporation of a little kata work.

    DougNZ

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    Re: IJF outlawed techniques

    Post by DougNZ on Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:16 pm

    judoratt wrote:  How many of these are you teaching in your dojo today?
    Ummm ... I'm teaching all those, though I only really 'show' the hand assisted ko uchi / o uchi.  My background is Kawaishi jiu jitsu and the aim is to do what those throws were meant to do - incapacitate someone.  Of course, as Kawaishi throws, some have different names.  

    We now disallow kani basami in sport ju-jitsu competition.  That call was mainly to keep the judo entrants happy; I competed in the days it was allowed and never saw a leg injury.  The trick was correct leg placement to either unbalance uke backwards or fold them to the ground; there was never leverage against the legs.  In fact the danger was more from whip-lash knock-outs!

    Another technique disallowed is that shown as ashi garami but not as a takedown. It is disallowed because people then attack with a heel hook and the twisting motion wrecks knees quickly. It also does ankles nicely because there is no pain warning before the ankle goes, unlike most other joint injuries. In sport ju-jitsu all leg locks must be straight / in line.

    We still score lifting uke's head above tori's shoulder, though the referee then immediately calls 'break'. It is illegal to 'bounce' an opponent who has the guard, therefore the lift cannot become a drop.

    We also discourage go jime, not for the damage it can cause uke but because of the long-term damage it does to tori's knees.

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