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    does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

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    does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

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    contrarian

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    does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by contrarian on Wed May 01, 2013 5:42 am

    i've long felt indifferent about this, but now i'm involved with a club that runs 3, one hour sessions consecutively, and now i'm just annoyed.

    and i do wonder if this prevents some people from joining judo at all, due to their religious or anti-religious sentiments.

    does anyone have insight to how people started doing this? was this always the case, even before Kano passed away?
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    Stacey

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Stacey on Wed May 01, 2013 5:48 am

    would you feel better saluting the Commander in Chief?

    jkw

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by jkw on Wed May 01, 2013 6:06 am

    contrarian wrote:i've long felt indifferent about this, but now i'm involved with a club that runs 3, one hour sessions consecutively, and now i'm just annoyed.

    and i do wonder if this prevents some people from joining judo at all, due to their religious or anti-religious sentiments.

    does anyone have insight to how people started doing this? was this always the case, even before Kano passed away?

    We sometimes use an aikido dojo, so on those days it's Morihei Ueshiba.

    He has a v gruff photo - makes me imagine Hanon contemplating a sea of blue judogi, which we sometimes wear even though we shouldn't.

    tafftaz

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by tafftaz on Wed May 01, 2013 6:46 am

    contrarian wrote:i've long felt indifferent about this, but now i'm involved with a club that runs 3, one hour sessions consecutively, and now i'm just annoyed.

    and i do wonder if this prevents some people from joining judo at all, due to their religious or anti-religious sentiments.

    does anyone have insight to how people started doing this? was this always the case, even before Kano passed away?

    Every judoka I know does not even give the rei a second thought. It is just automatic. I tell new students that it is just a sign of thanks and respect for the people who are offering to train you and with you ,and vice versa.
    If something like that annoys someone then judo is the least of their worries.
    Nearly 30 yrs into my judo life and I have never, ever heard of anybody refusing to join a dojo because of the rei, and I have had many people from different religions and walks of life come and go over the years. Never had a problem.


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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Guest on Wed May 01, 2013 7:39 am

    I bow to a picture of Helio Gracie and fist-bump my Professor before every class. I also wear a blue gi jacket and white pants tied together with a kohaku obi that I haven't earned.

    Hanon

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Hanon on Wed May 01, 2013 8:01 am

    This subject gets on my tits.

    A tiny tiny minority of judo ignorant people get their knickers in a twist over the rei.

    The rei is a religious sect founded by a guru who demands respect or hell will devour all who refuse to deeply bow before ...what ever it is one bows to. For F..s sake. Are we debating testicular cancer, breast cancer. child famine, world poverty? How in the name of Ones God can there be so much utter crap spouted on a judo forum about a rei? The option to making the rei is the giving of blood. We are also known to sacrifice, on the alter of judo, pupils who refuse to rei or who are unable to walk on water.

    I assume we where all taught manners by our parents at home? I assume no one has a problem saying please and thank you? I assume no one has a problem shaking a persons hand when introduced?

    Judo is Japanese and we who practice judo follow, without prejudice to our soul, a set of codes. Those codes are humanistic and oil the relationships we make by building bridges that cross the boundaries of religion, race, gender, age and any other barrier to learning. The rei is a binding agent that brings us together not separates us and puts us into groups, the rei is a common sign of respect. The rei is bridge building. The rei is a sign we as human beings are all one and the same, simply human beings. Rank has zero to do with the rei. Respect.

    If one is not well mannered or manner educated I guess the rei could, under such rare occasions, appear odd. What the rei is not is a religious action in any shape or form. It is not a sign of submission or acceptance or some sort of secret code.

    The rei is so simple it is a thank you. We practice a Japanese way, an education, a sport if you insist, to that end we are saying thank you, hello and goodbye.

    In relation to bowing to a picture of kano I have zero problem in passing a man a sign of respect for providing me this wonderful venture he founded so I may benefit from it. If or when I bow to a picture of Kano I am saying thanks for all you have done for me in my life. Nothing more and nothing less. I am not worshiping kano when I rei to his picture I am saying thank you. Period.

    If this is the best we can do for a debate on this forum, yet again for the thousandth time, I suggest those who dislike the rei practice an awful lot more judo and a lot less time debating it on a forum.

    Mike


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    BillC

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by BillC on Wed May 01, 2013 8:03 am

    Sigh. OK, I have a few minutes so I will bite.

    It's not the picture being bowed to ... at least not "supposed" to be ... it is the shomen, the front and center of the hall ... as in "shomen ni rei" ... if you have never heard that phrase quit here because the next thing uttered is "sensei ni rei" and presumably sensei is sitting at the shomen as well at the start and end of class. Gotta bow somewhere ... lots written about this ... the Japanese even have a special verb for lining things up properly, and it has positive cultural associations applied to all kinds of things animate and inanimate.

    It is common to place the photo of Kano-shihan at the shomen as it is the most "important place." We also have a picture of our late founder on that wall ... along with some other stuff that probably doesn't belong there.

    Some dojo have a "spirit shelf" ... NBK and I talked about this in terms of decoration versus shinto versus weeaboo ... I won't even wear a yarmulke at a bar mitzvah or Jewish wedding any more so no way I am personally going to play that game.

    There are lots of "japanesy" affectations in the judo world. Won't comment on the BJJ thing. But what people don't know they tend to make up, especially if it makes judo seem more esoteric (there's that word again) and mysterious (cue the theremin).

    Anybody that gets hung up on this, and won't accept a reasonable explanation of the true secular nature ... probably don't want them around anyway because I'd have to constantly be biting my tongue on a whole range of issues ...







    ... though after practice I recently took great, perverse joy listening to a guy wax eloquently on gun rights and concealed carry while simultaneously watching him drop the slide from his new Berreta not once, not twice, but three times onto the floor until a very polite ex-Marine showed him how he was inadvertently disassembling it ... and suggest he refrain from pointing it at people and pulling the trigger until he had some formal training.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed May 01, 2013 8:25 am

    Over the past few years I have visited several federations' national dôjô where the country's national/Olympic team practised and where there wasn't even a picture of Kanô present in the dôjô. In many countries the double 'rei' (to the shômen, or Kanô and to the sensei) has never been common and only a single rei (without any words following) is done. The double 'rei' typically is only heard in countries where there are many Japanese sensei or sensei of Japanese origin present. Without any picture of Kanô being present anymore the question becomes sort of redundant. To some extent this evolution is not surprising and reflects what we are seeing in contemporary jûdô: no respect/interest for the education which jûdô offers/can offer, with the only respect/interest being in medals.


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    Heisenberg

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Heisenberg on Wed May 01, 2013 8:27 am

    We perform seiza rei at the beginning of practice and makso and seiza rei leaving. I dont think of it as religious or unusual. I am pagan and my main instructor is atheist, and others are agnostic, Christian, catholic, the whole gamut. We rei as a simple, traditional show of respect, and more importantly a moment to focus.

    We do not presently display a picture of Kano.


    Last edited by Heisenberg on Wed May 01, 2013 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Neil G

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Neil G on Wed May 01, 2013 8:50 am

    Question - are there shinto or buddhist judo dojos that bow to kamiza or shinzen rather than shomen? This happens with some kendo dojo but most are secular.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed May 01, 2013 9:10 am

    Neil G wrote:Question - are there shinto or buddhist judo dojos that bow to kamiza or shinzen rather than shomen? This happens with some kendo dojo but most are secular.

    In jûdô kamiza and shômen are often mixed, not just in terms of bowing but also in terms of where sensei/visitors are seated. I don't think this has anything to do with Shintô or Buddhism. Jûdô is kept far more secular than some koryû styles. Naturally, there are universities and institutions in Japan which have a religious designation and where there also is a dôjô, but I am not sure about the further relevance in this context.


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    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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    contrarian

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by contrarian on Wed May 01, 2013 1:01 pm

    Hanon wrote:This subject gets on my tits.

    A tiny tiny minority of judo ignorant people get their knickers in a twist over the rei.

    The rei is a religious sect founded by a guru who demands respect or hell will devour all who refuse to deeply bow before ...what ever it is one bows to. For F..s sake. Are we debating testicular cancer, breast cancer. child famine, world poverty? How in the name of Ones God can there be so much utter crap spouted on a judo forum about a rei? The option to making the rei is the giving of blood. We are also known to sacrifice, on the alter of judo, pupils who refuse to rei or who are unable to walk on water.

    I assume we where all taught manners by our parents at home? I assume no one has a problem saying please and thank you? I assume no one has a problem shaking a persons hand when introduced?

    Judo is Japanese and we who practice judo follow, without prejudice to our soul, a set of codes. Those codes are humanistic and oil the relationships we make by building bridges that cross the boundaries of religion, race, gender, age and any other barrier to learning. The rei is a binding agent that brings us together not separates us and puts us into groups, the rei is a common sign of respect. The rei is bridge building. The rei is a sign we as human beings are all one and the same, simply human beings. Rank has zero to do with the rei. Respect.

    If one is not well mannered or manner educated I guess the rei could, under such rare occasions, appear odd. What the rei is not is a religious action in any shape or form. It is not a sign of submission or acceptance or some sort of secret code.

    The rei is so simple it is a thank you. We practice a Japanese way, an education, a sport if you insist, to that end we are saying thank you, hello and goodbye.

    In relation to bowing to a picture of kano I have zero problem in passing a man a sign of respect for providing me this wonderful venture he founded so I may benefit from it. If or when I bow to a picture of Kano I am saying thanks for all you have done for me in my life. Nothing more and nothing less. I am not worshiping kano when I rei to his picture I am saying thank you. Period.

    If this is the best we can do for a debate on this forum, yet again for the thousandth time, I suggest those who dislike the rei practice an awful lot more judo and a lot less time debating it on a forum.

    Mike

    you were the most useless person at the old JF, and I see that nothing has changed. keep it up, old man. you are awesome at it.

    Old Chestnut

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Old Chestnut on Wed May 01, 2013 2:00 pm

    I dunno, I signed up at the old JF myself previously, and I'm sure I was more useless Wink
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    Udon

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Udon on Wed May 01, 2013 2:11 pm

    Contrarian, I have no idea what your judo experience may be, but you have just shown yourself to be lacking a basic understanding of judo and the principles Kano shihan wanted judoka to abide by ie: respecting others, mutual welfare and benefit.

    Mike Hanon please continue.

    DougNZ

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by DougNZ on Wed May 01, 2013 3:05 pm

    contrarian wrote:you were the most useless person at the old JF, and I see that nothing has changed. keep it up, old man. you are awesome at it.

    Pretty antagonistic and uncalled for, I would have thought. Learn some manners.
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    contrarian

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by contrarian on Wed May 01, 2013 3:08 pm

    Udon wrote:Contrarian, I have no idea what your judo experience may be, but you have just shown yourself to be lacking a basic understanding of judo and the principles Kano shihan wanted judoka to abide by ie: respecting others, mutual welfare and benefit.

    Mike Hanon please continue.

    right he showed a lot of respect to others at the old JF.
    right, i must have missed that.
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    BillC

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by BillC on Wed May 01, 2013 5:29 pm

    DougNZ wrote:Pretty antagonistic and uncalled for, I would have thought. Learn some manners.

    Lectures won't work with chimpo no atama here, especially with polysyllabic words like antagonistic.

    The best thing to do with a member who continues to act like Assholio ... is to ignore them! No matter how ridiculous, no matter how provocative ... be the empty jacket ... nothing to connect with ... just don't respond. Several people here I read only in passing ... or not at all ... and they treat me as if I do not exist in turn. Works well.

    Plenty of folks here are on a perverse ego trip, flogging the tiny dolphin in public is really the activity. Don't give them the pleasure of thinking anyone is actually watching ... as if there was anything big enough to see.
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    ThePieman

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by ThePieman on Wed May 01, 2013 8:39 pm

    contrarian, you are out of order!

    Why on Earth would you start a conversation and then resort to this behaviour without provocation in place of debate?

    Do you have problems that I'm not aware of?


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    NBK

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by NBK on Wed May 01, 2013 9:39 pm

    My granny told me not to argue with the town drunk - strangers might not know who's who.

    One of my dojo has a shinzen - an elaborate Shinto kamiza. When I am the head student, I call 'shomen ni .... rei!' and everyone bows. When one of the senior Japanese is head, he calls 'shinzen ni...'. No one bats an eye either way.

    The Kodokan calls 'Kano shihan no shashin ni.... rei!' and I will bet that it stirs his ashes every time.

    I will guarantee that when Kano shihan was alive, they bowed to him - and he bowed back, probably as low or lower than the students and staff.

    NBK


    Hanon

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Hanon on Wed May 01, 2013 10:45 pm

    contrarian wrote:
    Hanon wrote:This subject gets on my tits.

    A tiny tiny minority of judo ignorant people get their knickers in a twist over the rei.

    The rei is a religious sect founded by a guru who demands respect or hell will devour all who refuse to deeply bow before ...what ever it is one bows to. For F..s sake. Are we debating testicular cancer, breast cancer. child famine, world poverty? How in the name of Ones God can there be so much utter crap spouted on a judo forum about a rei? The option to making the rei is the giving of blood. We are also known to sacrifice, on the alter of judo, pupils who refuse to rei or who are unable to walk on water.

    I assume we where all taught manners by our parents at home? I assume no one has a problem saying please and thank you? I assume no one has a problem shaking a persons hand when introduced?

    Judo is Japanese and we who practice judo follow, without prejudice to our soul, a set of codes. Those codes are humanistic and oil the relationships we make by building bridges that cross the boundaries of religion, race, gender, age and any other barrier to learning. The rei is a binding agent that brings us together not separates us and puts us into groups, the rei is a common sign of respect. The rei is bridge building. The rei is a sign we as human beings are all one and the same, simply human beings. Rank has zero to do with the rei. Respect.

    If one is not well mannered or manner educated I guess the rei could, under such rare occasions, appear odd. What the rei is not is a religious action in any shape or form. It is not a sign of submission or acceptance or some sort of secret code.

    The rei is so simple it is a thank you. We practice a Japanese way, an education, a sport if you insist, to that end we are saying thank you, hello and goodbye.

    In relation to bowing to a picture of kano I have zero problem in passing a man a sign of respect for providing me this wonderful venture he founded so I may benefit from it. If or when I bow to a picture of Kano I am saying thanks for all you have done for me in my life. Nothing more and nothing less. I am not worshiping kano when I rei to his picture I am saying thank you. Period.

    If this is the best we can do for a debate on this forum, yet again for the thousandth time, I suggest those who dislike the rei practice an awful lot more judo and a lot less time debating it on a forum.

    Mike

    you were the most useless person at the old JF, and I see that nothing has changed. keep it up, old man. you are awesome at it.

    Okay, You have a point. My reply is provocative. You have to understand it causes offence to me and many others when the rei is identified as something to do with religion, with 'worship'. I am not going to write about my personal faith, beliefs or disbeliefs They are mine and I respect that your thoughts or faiths are yours. Now THIS IS ONE OF THE POINTS TO THE REI. It is a common sign of greeting and respect. It is a time for a little inner reflection.

    The rei is an international language. Judo is such a wonderful vehicle to bring people together who under other circumstances would be shooting each other. Judo is a practice where we are all equal in terms of humanity. There should be no outside factors bought into the dojo such as gender or race etc. What is more when taught correctly the philosophy of judo actually works in practice.
    If a pupil identifies the rei as some religious or sign of worship act of course they will object, I would object. I worship no man. Kano was adamant his judo was for all and to have the noble goal achieved his judo was founded to be void of any outside forces that may cause a division or split. Kano was a man years ahead of his time and he not only wanted people to work and learn together he used judo to achieve this. When I teach judo or mix with judoka I keep well away from politics and any other sort of external notion that may colour the practice of judo. If you like you could write judo is completely neutral in nature and practice. This is how judo has spread around the world and what makes the world one big dojo for us, its rather wonderful.

    I make it crystal clear to every student I have ever taught that the rei is a sign of respect, self and respect for others and I have never ever had a problem over the rei and I am very VERY well travelled and have taught in well over 35 countries with various religious beliefs. I have taught religious people and leaders of their faiths. When we understand what kodokan judo is there is a willingness to participate in the rei.

    No place I have travelled to and taught judo in is more split over race and religion than the Balkans. Wow can they be a strongly divided people. Judo is practiced in all the countries there and the rei is also seen in every dojo I have visited.

    Now the one thing I have found from people is some identify judo as being violent and teaches violence. This is another topic but that has been a greater bridge to build for me than the rei.

    I hope you have found this reply less confrontational and more helpful.

    Sincerely,

    Mike


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    Hanon

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Hanon on Thu May 02, 2013 1:03 am

    Old Chestnut wrote:I dunno, I signed up at the old JF myself previously, and I'm sure I was more useless Wink

    Though our fellow poster Contrarian writes with heavy boots he does speak the truth. If I like it or not the FACTS support his statement. Doing research it is a fact I AM the most unpopular poster on this new forum, By a rather large margin too.

    Regards,

    Mike


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    Hanon

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Hanon on Thu May 02, 2013 1:10 am

    contrarian wrote:
    Udon wrote:Contrarian, I have no idea what your judo experience may be, but you have just shown yourself to be lacking a basic understanding of judo and the principles Kano shihan wanted judoka to abide by ie: respecting others, mutual welfare and benefit.

    Mike Hanon please continue.

    right he showed a lot of respect to others at the old JF.
    right, i must have missed that.

    In relation to the old forum I thought my reigi was acceptable? Maybe it is I who needs to understand more about the rei than I teach? It is a healthy thing to be challenged and good for us all to spend some time in inner reflection. I learned a lot on the old forum, some things surprised me. I had no idea how the written verse did not travel so well and just how a post can be misread or misunderstood.
    This was a particularly steep learning curve for me as I have had to write objective professional reports as a major part of my profession.

    Believe me writing on a judo forum is a very good lesson in putting one in ones place. Thanks for the heads up.

    Mike


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    genetic judoka

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu May 02, 2013 4:16 am

    There are mixed feelings held by many over Hanon's contributions on the old forum and this one. that is certainly true.

    however what is also true is that he has dedicated what in some cases must have been hours of his own time on a thread answering difficult questions for people he is under no obligation to help. many of those answers were considered quite useful by many, myself included.

    you, contrarian, apparently were on the old forum too. and unless you posted under a different name, I know of zero examples of you helping people with difficult questions. as such, it stands to reason that he was at worst the second most useless person on there. second of course to yourself.

    feel free to log off, and either never return, or lurk silently. I promise we won't miss you.


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    contrarian

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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by contrarian on Thu May 02, 2013 5:20 am

    Hanon wrote:
    contrarian wrote:
    Hanon wrote:This subject gets on my tits.

    A tiny tiny minority of judo ignorant people get their knickers in a twist over the rei.

    The rei is a religious sect founded by a guru who demands respect or hell will devour all who refuse to deeply bow before ...what ever it is one bows to. For F..s sake. Are we debating testicular cancer, breast cancer. child famine, world poverty? How in the name of Ones God can there be so much utter crap spouted on a judo forum about a rei? The option to making the rei is the giving of blood. We are also known to sacrifice, on the alter of judo, pupils who refuse to rei or who are unable to walk on water.

    I assume we where all taught manners by our parents at home? I assume no one has a problem saying please and thank you? I assume no one has a problem shaking a persons hand when introduced?

    Judo is Japanese and we who practice judo follow, without prejudice to our soul, a set of codes. Those codes are humanistic and oil the relationships we make by building bridges that cross the boundaries of religion, race, gender, age and any other barrier to learning. The rei is a binding agent that brings us together not separates us and puts us into groups, the rei is a common sign of respect. The rei is bridge building. The rei is a sign we as human beings are all one and the same, simply human beings. Rank has zero to do with the rei. Respect.

    If one is not well mannered or manner educated I guess the rei could, under such rare occasions, appear odd. What the rei is not is a religious action in any shape or form. It is not a sign of submission or acceptance or some sort of secret code.

    The rei is so simple it is a thank you. We practice a Japanese way, an education, a sport if you insist, to that end we are saying thank you, hello and goodbye.

    In relation to bowing to a picture of kano I have zero problem in passing a man a sign of respect for providing me this wonderful venture he founded so I may benefit from it. If or when I bow to a picture of Kano I am saying thanks for all you have done for me in my life. Nothing more and nothing less. I am not worshiping kano when I rei to his picture I am saying thank you. Period.

    If this is the best we can do for a debate on this forum, yet again for the thousandth time, I suggest those who dislike the rei practice an awful lot more judo and a lot less time debating it on a forum.

    Mike

    you were the most useless person at the old JF, and I see that nothing has changed. keep it up, old man. you are awesome at it.

    Okay, You have a point. My reply is provocative. You have to understand it causes offence to me and many others when the rei is identified as something to do with religion, with 'worship'. I am not going to write about my personal faith, beliefs or disbeliefs They are mine and I respect that your thoughts or faiths are yours. Now THIS IS ONE OF THE POINTS TO THE REI. It is a common sign of greeting and respect. It is a time for a little inner reflection.

    The rei is an international language. Judo is such a wonderful vehicle to bring people together who under other circumstances would be shooting each other. Judo is a practice where we are all equal in terms of humanity. There should be no outside factors bought into the dojo such as gender or race etc. What is more when taught correctly the philosophy of judo actually works in practice.
    If a pupil identifies the rei as some religious or sign of worship act of course they will object, I would object. I worship no man. Kano was adamant his judo was for all and to have the noble goal achieved his judo was founded to be void of any outside forces that may cause a division or split. Kano was a man years ahead of his time and he not only wanted people to work and learn together he used judo to achieve this. When I teach judo or mix with judoka I keep well away from politics and any other sort of external notion that may colour the practice of judo. If you like you could write judo is completely neutral in nature and practice. This is how judo has spread around the world and what makes the world one big dojo for us, its rather wonderful.

    I make it crystal clear to every student I have ever taught that the rei is a sign of respect, self and respect for others and I have never ever had a problem over the rei and I am very VERY well travelled and have taught in well over 35 countries with various religious beliefs. I have taught religious people and leaders of their faiths. When we understand what kodokan judo is there is a willingness to participate in the rei.

    No place I have travelled to and taught judo in is more split over race and religion than the Balkans. Wow can they be a strongly divided people. Judo is practiced in all the countries there and the rei is also seen in every dojo I have visited.

    Now the one thing I have found from people is some identify judo as being violent and teaches violence. This is another topic but that has been a greater bridge to build for me than the rei.

    I hope you have found this reply less confrontational and more helpful.

    Sincerely,

    Mike

    i must say that i did not expect this kind of response from you.
    thank you for your reply.
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    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu May 02, 2013 6:12 am

    In 2008 a symposium was held in Kanoya in Kagoshima under the the title "The mind of martial arts -- Rules of decorum" that was largely devoted to bowing and etiquette in judo. The website is still up, so I am providing the link as I thought that people might perhaps find some of the stuff presented there interesting:

    http://budo2008.nifs-k.ac.jp/index.html.en


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    Re: does your club bow to picture of Kano before and after practice?

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