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    Intensity of Randori

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    rjohnston411

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    Intensity of Randori

    Post by rjohnston411 on Sat May 11, 2013 6:29 am

    How intense/hard do you go in randori? Should you ever go full-bore, shiai-style and is there a reason for that other than getting the feel of said shiai?

    Also, this may seem kind of common-sense, but I will ask anyway. How hard should you throw uke in randori? I see a bunch of the Sankyu through Ikkyu guys (predominantly younger, 16-18 which may explain it) go at it pretty hard. Guys get thumped pretty solidly. If I was competing or fighting, that's one thing but I feel that slamming uke is just a bad idea.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by genetic judoka on Sat May 11, 2013 6:52 am

    that depends on a lot of factors. if I'm working with a white belt I'm never ever gonna go full bore. if I'm working with an older judoka I'm rarely gonna go full bore, but there are those tough older fellas who really wanna go full bore, and get offended if you don't. in those cases I'll happily oblige. if I'm working with another physically fit yudansha, it will usually start light and slowly ramp up in intensity til one of us gives some sort of signal that they wanna tone it down. I do my best to never be the one to escalate it to the next level, but will follow suit if it seems appropriate to do so.

    hard randori has its place in training. but that doesn't mean all randori, or even most randori, should be really hard.

    in terms of how hard to throw... well I'm one of those guys who never tries to spin out to my belly to avoid a score. and if you're not doing that either I'll do my best to throw you gently. but if you are consistently trying to spin out of throws, I'll follow through more and as a result throw harder. if you latch onto my back instead of taking a clean ukemi, I'm much more likely to land on you, but will still try to avoid doing so, especially if you're less experienced. so to summarize, you throw them as hard as you have to to throw them cleanly. also it's quite possible for a novice uke to think they're being thrown hard if their ukemi is sub par.

    for a long time I was accused by many of throwing people way too hard in randori, but most of my judo instruction comes from someone with a strong korean influence (trained there for many many years) and as I understand it they're known for throwing really hard. so to me that just seemed like the norm. now I do my best to throw just as hard as is necessary, and no harder.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat May 11, 2013 6:58 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:How intense/hard do you go in randori? Should you ever go full-bore, shiai-style and is there a reason for that other than getting the feel of said shiai?

    Also, this may seem kind of common-sense, but I will ask anyway. How hard should you throw uke in randori? I see a bunch of the Sankyu through Ikkyu guys (predominantly younger, 16-18 which may explain it) go at it pretty hard. Guys get thumped pretty solidly. If I was competing or fighting, that's one thing but I feel that slamming uke is just a bad idea.

    Depends on who is throwing whom...

    If I at 50 years old am doing randori with a 12 year old, probably not going to throw them too hard. Of course, some 12 years olds can handle more than others.

    Young guy (and gals) go hard because the are young and enjoy it, and are probably primarily training for shiai. That's what young judoka do.

    Going hard is not a bad thing if both people are up for it. As far as how hard to throw, well, how much control do you have and how good is your ukemi?


    And for myself, if I I'm doing randori with one of my young black belts, I go as hard as I can. After all, it's more fun that way and edifying.

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Guest on Sat May 11, 2013 7:34 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:How intense/hard do you go in randori? Should you ever go full-bore, shiai-style and is there a reason for that other than getting the feel of said shiai?

    Also, this may seem kind of common-sense, but I will ask anyway. How hard should you throw uke in randori? I see a bunch of the Sankyu through Ikkyu guys (predominantly younger, 16-18 which may explain it) go at it pretty hard. Guys get thumped pretty solidly. If I was competing or fighting, that's one thing but I feel that slamming uke is just a bad idea.

    It's rare when I come across an older teen or young adult who is skilled that doesn't go 100%. I'm OK with it because I like to go at that pace from time to time.

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Guest on Sat May 11, 2013 7:36 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    If I at 50 years old am doing randori with a 12 year old, probably not going to throw them too hard. Of course, some 12 years olds can handle more than others.

    I didn't know you were that old. With the way you post you always struck me as younger.
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by nomoremondays on Sat May 11, 2013 7:40 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:How intense/hard do you go in randori? Should you ever go full-bore, shiai-style and is there a reason for that other than getting the feel of said shiai?

    Also, this may seem kind of common-sense, but I will ask anyway. How hard should you throw uke in randori? I see a bunch of the Sankyu through Ikkyu guys (predominantly younger, 16-18 which may explain it) go at it pretty hard. Guys get thumped pretty solidly. If I was competing or fighting, that's one thing but I feel that slamming uke is just a bad idea.

    Against other black belts who are my age (maybe +5 years) or lower, I go quite hard and if I can catch them, I throw them hard as well. For poorly done throws, or rather, imperfectly done throws I will practice some spin outs as well.
    However I don't think of it as shiai as I dont do ( or try not to do )a few things: I won't try to do too many sacrifice counters and will work on my hip breaks and cuts, I won't rag doll them in the grip fight if I can achieve the upper hand, I won't overdrive on throws, for example, if I catch ouchi gari i won't push off from one end of the room to the other, which I may very well do in competition, I'll do my best to not land on them and will 'roll over' them, I try to be super aware of the edges of the room and the folks in them etc. In other words, though the intensity might seem a bit like shiai for ousiders its not really the same thing.

    DougNZ

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by DougNZ on Sat May 11, 2013 8:55 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:How intense/hard do you go in randori?

    We have a saying in our club: "Walk through new techniques to LEARN; drill to EMBED; use light randori to INTEGRATE; and do hard randori to TEST."

    I think randori should always have a purpose rather than to bash people or waltz aimlessly around the mat. Light randori might be used to try to fit a new technique into the repertoire or to concentrate on taking balance or to work on set-ups. Hard randori is to see how well newly integrated techniques are going and how well the judoka is going, mentally, physically and emotionally.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat May 11, 2013 9:08 am

    Dave R. wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    If I at 50 years old am doing randori with a 12 year old, probably not going to throw them too hard. Of course, some 12 years olds can handle more than others.

    I didn't know you were that old. With the way you post you always struck me as younger.

    That old, LOL. Now Hanon, HE's OLD.
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    xjej

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by xjej on Sat May 11, 2013 10:03 am

    According with randori done with a group of people with same age, same level and same aims it depends by the period, by the moment, by the purpose and by kind of the randori.
    If you add different lvl of judokas, different age and so on, more variables are to be added.

    NYCNewbie

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by NYCNewbie on Sat May 11, 2013 10:23 am

    I love questions like this- I always find how others do Judo fascinating...

    We go at it fairly hard in Randori. Not full bore/100% all out hard, but definitely fairly hard, like maybe 80%. There is so much ego involved, and no one wants to be thrown. It's sad, because you don't learn by resisting throw attempts, but so many of us get in our own way.
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    BillC

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by BillC on Sat May 11, 2013 10:58 am

    Having lived a number of years in this body, and explored most of its exterior, the function and limits of each part, I have never located this mysterious knob that allows to to dial randori to 100%, 80%, 50% ... or which would allow me to give "110% coach."

    Maybe it is a firmware thing, but none of the orifices on my body seem to be any kind of com port that I recognize (and with hyperterm removed from Windows 7 that is a bit of a bother these days as well).

    Having said that, I think there are things one can quantify in randori as a player and a teacher. These include things such as attacks per minute as the best example. Successful attacks as a percentage as well. Might it be better to talk in these terms when discussing how "hard" one is practicing?
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat May 11, 2013 11:05 am

    BillC wrote:Having lived a number of years in this body, and explored most of its exterior, the function and limits of each part, I have never located this mysterious knob that allows to to dial randori to 100%, 80%, 50% ... or which would allow me to give "110% coach."

    Maybe it is a firmware thing, but none of the orifices on my body seem to be any kind of com port that I recognize (and with hyperterm removed from Windows 7 that is a bit of a bother these days as well).

    Having said that, I think there are things one can quantify in randori as a player and a teacher. These include things such as attacks per minute as the best example. Successful attacks as a percentage as well. Might it be better to talk in these terms when discussing how "hard" one is practicing?

    If you wanted to be more quantitative, sure, attacks per minute could be one measure. Same for "successful" attacks etc.

    There are things like attitude that might be harder to quanitify, though.

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    BillC

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by BillC on Sat May 11, 2013 9:19 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:If you wanted to be more quantitative, sure, attacks per minute could be one measure. Same for "successful" attacks etc.

    There are things like attitude that might be harder to quantify, though.

    No argument from me there. I am beyond fascination with the concept of "percent" when describing something that hasn't been ... or can't be as you note ... measured. So far beyond that it makes me slightly nauseous. pale (where is the barfing smiley, btw)

    Of course people are talking about the perceived use of energy, or at least the energy applied to the opponent. But in an activity where "maximum efficiency" is ... or should be ... a guiding principle this starts to lose meaning compared to something where there is a rheostat on the intensity ... faster, heavier, etc. ... swimming, track, weightlifting.

    I used to get all sorts of interrogation from supposedly bright mahogany row types who would ask me "what's your percent confidence in getting that big order?" I'd get shut down if I responded with "the item is budgeted, but we have two competitors and buying influences are mixed in their preferences, the decision won't be made until the CRC meets, and then they won't spend the cash until 4Q." Nope, it was a big order, I'd better say something north of 75% or what kind of peddlar could I possibly be. Then they'd make me put all these guesses on a spreadsheet, along with guesses of a bunch of other lobby lizards and then ... seriously ... kick them up to the president and the board as if our future business was something less than a coin flip, not the awful work of unreadable fiction it was.

    Once I asked a guy "do you mean you have 80% chance of getting 100% of that million-dollar order, or do you mean you have a 100% chance of getting 80% of a million bucks." Because I knew it was BS, none of these stupid percentages track, the job hadn't even been budgeted by the customer yet. And yet I may as well been a Navajo code talker, he skipped right past it and there it was a week later on the "forecast."

    Such it is with saying to someone "just go 50%." Does that mean "I want you to straight-arm the crap out of me and try to shut down exactly half my attacks?" Or does it mean "I'll throw you 50%, you get the other 50%?" Or is it, as I understand most people, some unwritten mutual understanding where 50% means yakusokugeiko, 80% means taking the fall if it's good, and 100% means "I am going to flatten that SOB or die trying."


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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by still learning on Sat May 11, 2013 9:47 pm

    I've been given a sarcastic nickname of "mr fifty percent" as that is how I always start but seldom finish. Starting off light and relaxed, looking to avoid attacks rather than countering with big throws where you bury your partner in the mat. However, as randori sessions develop and the intensity increases so does the effort and commitment. This feels natural to me and is well received by the more competitive judoka in the clubs.

    I have noticed that some clubs where judoka still do shiai have a different view of randori. Shiai is where you should put all your effort and commitment, leaving the mat totally spent haven given it all. Having such an outlet takes the ego out of randori, but it seems those judoka who never do shiai see randori as their competitive pinnacle and so put a comparitive amount of effort in accordingly.
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    judoratt

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by judoratt on Sun May 12, 2013 1:21 am

    Dave R. wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    If I at 50 years old am doing randori with a 12 year old, probably not going to throw them too hard. Of course, some 12 years olds can handle more than others.

    I didn't know you were that old. With the way you post you always struck me as younger.

    You think that is old? Shocked Shocked

    Hanon

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Hanon on Sun May 12, 2013 2:06 am

    In terms of Randori there is very much the theory then the practice. Randori today is a concept of judo that is not well understood if its understood at all. Randori to most judoka is Shiai but at ones dojo, in other words its fighting other than at a championships.

    THE most important factor to learning how to use the tool of randori is to understand its intent. Without understand the psychological practice the physical practice is so blurred randori becomes shiai.

    Mind set is another way to put things perhaps a tad more in perspective. Randori, in its original conceptual form was a time to practice ones judo without the psychologigal pressures of winning. Winning doest enter into randori there are zero scores and no referee. Randori is the time to learn how to place the gokyo into movement with an active moving partner. Randori is a time to practice ones new techniques and polish ones other techniques WITHOUT any other factors entering ones mind such as winning, pride, los of self control etc.

    Randori is as much exercise in mental training as it is in physical actions. One should learn self control and self discipline. if ones sensei says only practice uki goshi for every lesson this week that is the time to practice uki goshi.

    Problems occur in randori when it becomes a V a V situation. There is no verses in randori except against the self and ones own techniques.

    Put simply I have thrown world champions in randori, champions like Yamashita. In shiai Yamashita would score ippon against me in 1-5 seconds.

    Remember there are as many lessons to learn in being throw as throwing! Same in ne waza.

    Randori very much did when judo became a sport as who needs randori as a sport? Randori is a training in life. Sounds all Miyagi, but its so basic we fail to see it. In failing to see randori as it it is one reason, one of many, why judo has declined. Much much much too much emphasis placed on winning rather than how we win and developing the skills to win well.

    Randori is a time to practice its our personal time to improve in all areas of our judo free from any stress or other concepts that may prevent growth. I know, boring, but the question was asked.

    Mike


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    Q mystic

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Q mystic on Sun May 12, 2013 8:26 am

    Not boring at all Hanon, but take, for instance, the time you randori'd with Yamashita. Yamashita is prolly the type who likes to go hard sometimes and gets this out of his system. Then later, he works lighter randori with others for other benefits.

    Now, for the typical judoka who can maybe make it to judo 1-2x/wk (of its 2-3x/wk classes available) and wants to get the fun, sport aspect from judo from randori as well as everything else; this is going to frustrate him.

    I get the feeling that those who live in Japan or France never have issues with this where there are plenty judo classes and plenty partners to accomodate, but over here it seems these issues are common. I had one myself not long ago. Shocked lol I think.


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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Hanon on Mon May 13, 2013 4:13 am

    A major factor in the West in preventing us from receiving the true benefits of randori are pride, misuse of ego and several other psychological aspects.

    The desire to win win win in all situations has destroyed the practice of randori. There is no winning in randri its a time to practice and at club visits if one uses one noggin randori can be of great benefit as a psychological tool. When we where close to entering a championship our sensei advised us not to use our tokui waza at any club visits under any circumstances BUT rather to see what there top judoka where only too willing to show... Cool
    Come championship day many partners had zero idea what we would do but we where generally prepared for what was coming from the competition.

    Randori is like Kata, its a tool we use to achieve a given goal. Randori is not in itself the goal.

    Top heavy weight champions like Yamashita HAD to be carful what they did with lighter judoka or injury could occur just by being thrown by some of the top heavy weights. My own fighting weight started as a young teen at 63kg and ending in my mid twenties at about 70kg. Randori with the top heavy weights was of great value for them and us.

    Shiai is another completely different type of practice all together as is kata through to uchikomi.

    Mike


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    rjohnston411

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by rjohnston411 on Tue May 14, 2013 12:09 am

    Hanon, despite being a 7 month white belt, I agree totally with your post. Too much damn ego. There are a lot of our black belts who will work with you but anyone under brown just seems to be all about getting a 'win'.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue May 14, 2013 2:33 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:If you wanted to be more quantitative, sure, attacks per minute could be one measure. Same for "successful" attacks etc.

    There are things like attitude that might be harder to quantify, though.

    No argument from me there. I am beyond fascination with the concept of "percent" when describing something that hasn't been ... or can't be as you note ... measured. So far beyond that it makes me slightly nauseous. pale (where is the barfing smiley, btw)

    Of course people are talking about the perceived use of energy, or at least the energy applied to the opponent. But in an activity where "maximum efficiency" is ... or should be ... a guiding principle this starts to lose meaning compared to something where there is a rheostat on the intensity ... faster, heavier, etc. ... swimming, track, weightlifting.

    I used to get all sorts of interrogation from supposedly bright mahogany row types who would ask me "what's your percent confidence in getting that big order?" I'd get shut down if I responded with "the item is budgeted, but we have two competitors and buying influences are mixed in their preferences, the decision won't be made until the CRC meets, and then they won't spend the cash until 4Q." Nope, it was a big order, I'd better say something north of 75% or what kind of peddlar could I possibly be. Then they'd make me put all these guesses on a spreadsheet, along with guesses of a bunch of other lobby lizards and then ... seriously ... kick them up to the president and the board as if our future business was something less than a coin flip, not the awful work of unreadable fiction it was.

    Once I asked a guy "do you mean you have 80% chance of getting 100% of that million-dollar order, or do you mean you have a 100% chance of getting 80% of a million bucks." Because I knew it was BS, none of these stupid percentages track, the job hadn't even been budgeted by the customer yet. And yet I may as well been a Navajo code talker, he skipped right past it and there it was a week later on the "forecast."

    Such it is with saying to someone "just go 50%." Does that mean "I want you to straight-arm the crap out of me and try to shut down exactly half my attacks?" Or does it mean "I'll throw you 50%, you get the other 50%?" Or is it, as I understand most people, some unwritten mutual understanding where 50% means yakusokugeiko, 80% means taking the fall if it's good, and 100% means "I am going to flatten that SOB or die trying."


    When I worked in the oil business it was all about risk and uncetainty analysis. We would go to gret pains to try to quanitify the various aspects of a drilling prospect, and apply some sort of "risk" to our interpretations. Then there was uncertainty int he range of possibiilitty for the volume of hydrocarbons present, itself made up of seeral other things.

    Then some damned VP would ask "what'syourgut feeling on this", or even better, "Youguarantee success on this project, right? "

    Perception is reality.

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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue May 14, 2013 2:43 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:Hanon, despite being a 7 month white belt, I agree totally with your post. Too much damn ego. There are a lot of our black belts who will work with you but anyone under brown just seems to be all about getting a 'win'.

    Then the black belts need to be regulating the behaviour of the other more experienced mudansha. I know that is how I was trained. If I went all out with any of the various "colored belts" or white belts of little experience (less than mine anyway, it's not like I was very experienced at 3 years of Judo), I then got crushed as an example.

    The culture of the dojo is very important. If, as in our dojo, people are taught from the beginning to help the less experienced/smaller/less combative judoka, then they will mature in to people who don't just smash others because they can.

    I have a hard time getting my competitive students to go all our against me in randori...no,not shiai, just to put out maximal effort, be they 12 year olds or 19 year old shodans training for nationals. But I see them taking fall after fall for kids and less experienced adults despite that.

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    Q mystic

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Q mystic on Tue May 14, 2013 6:24 am

    Hanon wrote:A major factor in the West in preventing us from receiving the true benefits of randori are pride, misuse of ego and several other psychological aspects.

    The desire to win win win in all situations has destroyed the practice of randori. There is no winning in randri its a time to practice and at club visits if one uses one noggin randori can be of great benefit as a psychological tool. When we where close to entering a championship our sensei advised us not to use our tokui waza at any club visits under any circumstances BUT rather to see what there top judoka where only too willing to show... Cool
    Come championship day many partners had zero idea what we would do but we where generally prepared for what was coming from the competition.

    Randori is like Kata, its a tool we use to achieve a given goal. Randori is not in itself the goal.

    Top heavy weight champions like Yamashita HAD to be carful what they did with lighter judoka or injury could occur just by being thrown by some of the top heavy weights. My own fighting weight started as a young teen at 63kg and ending in my mid twenties at about 70kg. Randori with the top heavy weights was of great value for them and us.

    Shiai is another completely different type of practice all together as is kata through to uchikomi.

    Mike

    I don't think it really has alot to do with the winning tho. Or ego. I like to go hard but if there are 2 others similar in size to me that like to go hard, I'd try to pick the one that would more likely beat me mostly because he usually has better judo and you prolly can't hurt him as easily. I think this is common. I think they just want to go out there and do the best they can do (with speed and strength as well) so that there is no decieving themselves; and because it is usually more fun as well as better exercise.

    edit. Well, maybe ego in the way a phd in Psychology might think, but not the way it's typically referred.lol


    Last edited by Q mystic on Tue May 14, 2013 9:24 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Q mystic

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Q mystic on Tue May 14, 2013 6:28 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:Hanon, despite being a 7 month white belt, I agree totally with your post. Too much damn ego. There are a lot of our black belts who will work with you but anyone under brown just seems to be all about getting a 'win'.

    Couldn't it be that typically the browns and below are younger and simply enjoy the sport aspect more?

    If, however, they're going hard on people they shouldn't be, or on those who don't want to go hard, I understand this and they need a talking to from the partner and/or the sensei.


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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by genetic judoka on Tue May 14, 2013 7:35 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:Hanon, despite being a 7 month white belt, I agree totally with your post. Too much damn ego. There are a lot of our black belts who will work with you but anyone under brown just seems to be all about getting a 'win'.

    I don't know what the reasoning was, but I tended to go at it much harder as a brown belt than I do now. I think it may be because I had fewer injuries, and as such had less to worry about and could attempt more questionable things. also back then I still took competition pretty seriously, and maybe subconsciously saw greater need for more intense practice. now when I work with white belts, even though they're trying to throw me, I just do a lot of moving uchikomi (I'll enter for a throw then back out, so they see that they left an opening, but don't need to take the actual fall a bunch of times) and legitimately try to throw on 1 in 5 attempts.

    also, brown belts see you as a fellow kyu, and are thinking less about educating you and more about getting good practice in.

    and when these aforementioned brown belts go at it harder than you want them to, do you say anything to let them know you wanted a mellower practice, or do you match their intensity? if you match their intensity, it's not unreasonable that they see nothing wrong with ramping up the intensity further. perhaps you need to better communicate what it is you wish to get out of the randori session.

    it's also quite possible that they're not going anywhere near 100%, and you just don't know what their 100% looks like. as a white belt it's possible you're so far below their level that them just playing around seems like they're really going at it.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue May 14, 2013 11:31 am

    Q has a good point. Not everybody who desires "vigorous" or "hard" randori is doing it because of ego...It's entirely possible to go all out and not care about winning or losing other than in recognizing a learning situation. Not saying "ego" isn't involved at times, though, in a lot of people.

    Like him, I like to do it just because I like to do it. Letting it all hang out is very therapeutic at times.





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    Re: Intensity of Randori

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