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    Intensity of Randori

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    Q mystic

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    Join date : 2013-02-10

    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Q mystic on Tue May 14, 2013 11:54 am

    Absolutely Ben. Even if that means hitting a bjj club just to 'blast' your tech, even though you might most likely be subbed and lose in all fairness. If you havent alot of options, fun will be first and foremost. Fun in this case being healthy therapy.lol Younger guys might say, fun for fun, thats it.

    If I'm at a club that offers plenty partners and plenty time, its always going to be a decent mix of all randori I'm capable of. Of course, plenty heavy randori.

    And just to be sure, 'all out' imo would be combat or shiai. Heavy randori is just the best you can muster while still being aware of everything.lol

    Tho, there's always a see what you can do or where you fit deal with other similars, so if thats ego, thats fine but it isnt smoke the guy to be better. You will or you won't anyway.


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    Stacey

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Stacey on Tue May 14, 2013 1:17 pm

    the way I learned it was the lower rank sets the tone. What's easy for one person may be seriously hard for another and all partners should be respected. Same with special circumstances (age, significant weight differentials, injury, somebody getting ready for testing or a particular shiai). When it comes to somebody who outranks me, I don't offer harder than I'm willing to receive. When it comes to my own size, rank, skill, we decide together. I don't want to go hard for me every single time I step on the tatami and I don't expect people to offer hard every single time they pair with me. I don't expect easy, either.

    With white and yellow belts, I think part of my job is to get them comfortable throwing and being thrown. I let them set the pace, but I take the fall and practice good ukemi to demonstrate that it's good to take good ukemi. Similarly, I throw in a way that allows the kyu to practice good ukemi. I also monitor my partner just as I monitor myself. It's more common to have to suggest to a white or yellow belt that s/he should sit out as s/he gets too red faced or gives other indications of heavy fatigue. The fastest way to get an early kyu up and running and having fun is to take good ukemi and throw cleanly in a manner that allows them to practice good ukemi.

    Green and brown belts and young people are difficult, especially if they are "win" oriented in ronduri. I'm not in a position where I want to be buried by an 18 year old, and I can't keep pace with an 18 year old. I am old, and wiley, and I cheat (ashi waza is a great method of disrupting rhythm and timing). I will not put myself in a position where there's a high chance of getting injured. I've taken falls off the shoulders of 6' whatever 100 kilo guys enough - don't ask me to do it again without a very good reason. Yes, it's probably disappointing for a 16 year old green or brown belt to go against somebody like me, especially if all they want to do is go all out and win, but their desire does not outweigh my need to remain a healthy ukemi partner.

    The sport aspect of judo is great, it's just not the only aspect of judo. When I go to a dojo, I have just as much right to a good workout without risk of injury as anybody else - be it a 50 year old white belt, a 16 year old brown belt, or a 70 year old kohaku. If judo is a life long learning process, it is important for all of us to learn to responsibly play all of us, no matter what the day brings.
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    BillC

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by BillC on Tue May 14, 2013 3:59 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Perception is reality.

    Currently on biz travel, took along an electronics copy of Murakami's "1Q84" as my "airplane book." Having a hard enough time not creeping out just like every time I read his stuff, really don't need you making the ground beneath my feet any more permeable, thank you. confused

    jkw

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by jkw on Tue May 14, 2013 9:55 pm

    This might be useful for the discussion:

    From years back, we have been taught that there are three kinds of practice [for randori]: first rapid techniques applied against a man who is better at judo than you are. In this type of practice you get thrown a great deal. We call this sutekeiko, or throw-away practice, in Japanese. The second method is to practice with someone about on your level with the same approach you would have if you were engaged in a judo match. The third method calls for your practicing with someone not as good at judo as you are. This is not supposed to be a chance for you to shove and push with the strength of your body and arms; it is supposed to be practice in which you use proper body motions, force your opponent off balance, and use techniques that you can handle with ease.

    Practicing to win is an error

    One of the most striking things to happen on the postwar judo scene is the almost total disappearance of practice for practice's sake, not for the sake of winning. Is it that before the older men could teach the younger ones how important this practice is, judo became popular through match after match, or is it that the young people today have grown much stronger than young people used to be? We are told in precise detailed explanations that all virtue lies in practice for practice's sake. It is so significant to progress in the techniques that we must not overlook it. Ignorance of this importance and the attitude that one is a senior or one is a teacher and need practice only to win is a grave error. Prewar senior judo men and teachers gave hot scoldings for this attitude.

    Practice for practice sake is the basic element of progress. To repeat, practice for its own sake is the key to progress. Rather than thinking of throwing or downing your opponent, think that he is actually being good enough to become the model on which you can both polish up the techniques you are good in and learn many new techniques. Pay no attention if your opponent throws you or turns your own attack against you. Practice with the single idea of learning the body movements and the techniques themselves. In practice sessions use as many right techniques, left techniques, and counter attacks as you can. Naturally, with all this activity one of these practice bouts can only last two or three minutes. That is all right, but remember, work out, rest a moment, work out again, rest again, and keep this process going throughout the entire practice session.

    Nowadays, practically everybody thinks that the thing to do is to have an advanced judo man teach you what to do and then for everyone to practice with someone more or less on their own level of proficiency. This notion results in the young man anxious to practice but standing glumly around in the training room because he is ready to work out but is so good that no one will practice with him. Such an attitude, of course, is folly.

    From Kazuzo Kudo, 9th dan (1967)

    http://judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/principles-of-kodokan-judo/187-judo-training-methods-by-kazuzo-kudo
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    sodo

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by sodo on Tue May 14, 2013 10:08 pm


    it's also quite possible that they're not going anywhere near 100%, and you just don't know what their 100% looks like. as a white belt it's possible you're so far below their level that them just playing around seems like they're really going at it.

    Laughing Laughing Laughing

    I seem to remember a couple of years ago telling a 6`5" sankyu on the old JF more or less the same thing Very Happy


    I IIRC in the beginning I had a hard time convincing him albino
    atb

    sodo


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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Guest on Tue May 14, 2013 11:47 pm

    genetic judoka wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:Hanon, despite being a 7 month white belt, I agree totally with your post. Too much damn ego. There are a lot of our black belts who will work with you but anyone under brown just seems to be all about getting a 'win'.

    I don't know what the reasoning was, but I tended to go at it much harder as a brown belt than I do now. I think it may be because I had fewer injuries, and as such had less to worry about and could attempt more questionable things. also back then I still took competition pretty seriously, and maybe subconsciously saw greater need for more intense practice. now when I work with white belts, even though they're trying to throw me, I just do a lot of moving uchikomi (I'll enter for a throw then back out, so they see that they left an opening, but don't need to take the actual fall a bunch of times) and legitimately try to throw on 1 in 5 attempts.

    also, brown belts see you as a fellow kyu, and are thinking less about educating you and more about getting good practice in.

    and when these aforementioned brown belts go at it harder than you want them to, do you say anything to let them know you wanted a mellower practice, or do you match their intensity? if you match their intensity, it's not unreasonable that they see nothing wrong with ramping up the intensity further. perhaps you need to better communicate what it is you wish to get out of the randori session.

    it's also quite possible that they're not going anywhere near 100%, and you just don't know what their 100% looks like. as a white belt it's possible you're so far below their level that them just playing around seems like they're really going at it.

    Your last sentence brings up a very good point. Everything happening during randori seems extremely fast in the beginning. Nowadays even when I play guys who are fast it doesn't seem so fast in my mind. I will still get thrown as I can't physically react as fast.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed May 15, 2013 2:49 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Perception is reality.

    Currently on biz travel, took along an electronics copy of Murakami's "1Q84" as my "airplane book." Having a hard enough time not creeping out just like every time I read his stuff, really don't need you making the ground beneath my feet any more permeable, thank you. confused

    Whatever you do don't think about the fact that most of matter is made up of empty space.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by genetic judoka on Wed May 15, 2013 5:24 am

    sodo wrote:

    it's also quite possible that they're not going anywhere near 100%, and you just don't know what their 100% looks like. as a white belt it's possible you're so far below their level that them just playing around seems like they're really going at it.

    Laughing Laughing Laughing

    I seem to remember a couple of years ago telling a 6`5" sankyu on the old JF more or less the same thing Very Happy


    I IIRC in the beginning I had a hard time convincing him albino
    atb

    sodo
    I remember that 6'5" sankyu. boy was he dense. thankfully he was very willing to learn from his elders, and now he isn't quite as dense.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed May 15, 2013 5:41 am

    genetic judoka wrote:
    sodo wrote:

    it's also quite possible that they're not going anywhere near 100%, and you just don't know what their 100% looks like. as a white belt it's possible you're so far below their level that them just playing around seems like they're really going at it.

    Laughing Laughing Laughing

    I seem to remember a couple of years ago telling a 6`5" sankyu on the old JF more or less the same thing Very Happy


    I IIRC in the beginning I had a hard time convincing him albino
    atb

    sodo
    I remember that 6'5" sankyu. boy was he dense. thankfully he was very willing to learn from his elders, and now he isn't quite as dense.

    What, you are not national champion yet? Very Happy

    Gus

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Gus on Thu May 16, 2013 1:05 am

    Depends on who you are fighting (8 year old, 80 year old man ? Hard randori ? - use common sense) . Light randori can be useful for developing technique and rhythm , Ive seen the national squad doing something resembling ballet - because if you do hard randori every day for hours you wont last long - hard randori can be useful when training for competition as well and everything in between - they all have their place and function.

    Hanon

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Hanon on Thu May 16, 2013 9:22 am

    Gus wrote:Depends on who you are fighting (8 year old, 80 year old man ? Hard randori ? - use common sense) . Light randori can be useful for developing technique and rhythm , Ive seen the national squad doing something resembling ballet - because if you do hard randori every day for hours you wont last long - hard randori can be useful when training for competition as well and everything in between - they all have their place and function.

    I know you are an expert on languages so my point will be understood. I am not being pedantic when I write there is no
    "Fighting" in randori, as there is no 'fighting' in kata or yaku soku geiko.

    I DO get where you are coming from. Of course there is a difference in how we work with a child or the elderly BUT that principle is applied to ALL parts of the judo code and practice.

    Randori is a specific tool and should be used for specific goals and learning.

    Again there is no real thing as hard randori, to indicate otherwise would enforce the belief their is soft randori and soft randori is called yaku soku geiko just as, I suspect, your "Hard randori" is in actuality, Shiai?

    The sensei in each session of randori should set the tone fopr the practice. The highest rank only use the Left or Right arm, only use osae waza or shime waza, the lower rank may NOT use kesa gatame etc and so forth.
    The point in randori is to work as a team without the V a V that is part the point of shiai.

    Randori is the punctuation not the letter just as kata is the grammar and the gokyo the alphabet. Only when combined can we structure a sentence then make phrases and write that book.

    I dread to imagine where you are teaching now? Shocked

    Best wishes to you and yours.

    Mike


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    Gus

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    Re: Intensity of Randori

    Post by Gus on Thu May 16, 2013 9:20 pm

    Hanon wrote:
    Gus wrote:Depends on who you are fighting (8 year old, 80 year old man ? Hard randori ? - use common sense) . Light randori can be useful for developing technique and rhythm , Ive seen the national squad doing something resembling ballet - because if you do hard randori every day for hours you wont last long - hard randori can be useful when training for competition as well and everything in between - they all have their place and function.

    I know you are an expert on languages so my point will be understood. I am not being pedantic when I write there is no
    "Fighting" in randori, as there is no 'fighting' in kata or yaku soku geiko.

    I DO get where you are coming from. Of course there is a difference in how we work with a child or the elderly BUT that principle is applied to ALL parts of the judo code and practice.

    Randori is a specific tool and should be used for specific goals and learning.

    Again there is no real thing as hard randori, to indicate otherwise would enforce the belief their is soft randori and soft randori is called yaku soku geiko just as, I suspect, your "Hard randori" is in actuality, Shiai?

    The sensei in each session of randori should set the tone fopr the practice. The highest rank only use the Left or Right arm, only use osae waza or shime waza, the lower rank may NOT use kesa gatame etc and so forth.
    The point in randori is to work as a team without the V a V that is part the point of shiai.

    Randori is the punctuation not the letter just as kata is the grammar and the gokyo the alphabet. Only when combined can we structure a sentence then make phrases and write that book.

    I dread to imagine where you are teaching now? Shocked

    Best wishes to you and yours.

    Mike

    Nay, Nay and thrice nay - for me hard Randori is not the same as Shiai - Shiai you are trying to overcome your opponent - generally peoples mentality is to win (even if its only over yourself) - hard randori to me is still an experiment where you are tring to help your opponent (though you could argue you do that in Shia as well)- but basically I am not competing with Tori in hard randori - its just much more energetic . There is no adreneline involved for me in hard randori for example.
    Im not teaching - I am learning - at a laboratory in Italy - I can inform you that fuccasia with buffalo mozarrela and pesto can only be combated with the afformentioned "hard randori".

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