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    Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

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    sodo

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    Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by sodo on Mon May 13, 2013 11:41 pm

    Hi All,

    Last Thuursday was a bank holiday where I live and I was invited to give a four hour training session at a club in South Hesse.

    The first 2 hours was ne waza with the juniors and youths and the second part was competition training with the youths and seniors. The second half was no problem Very Happy

    The first part I wanted to keep very general about worked on controlling uke in during osaekomi waza, body position, relaxing etc.., So after a little theory and a few demonstrations as a first practicle exercise got tori to apply kesa gatame and with light resistance from uke to transition to kami shio.

    I was imediately stopped by one of the clubs instructors and informed that the State Judo Association no longer allows kesa gatame to be taught to junior pupils under yellow belt because it may cause unnecassary stress and anxiety due to the claustrophobic nature of the hold pale


    He was Serious banghead

    Your opinions please bounce

    atb

    sodo


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    rjohnston411

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by rjohnston411 on Tue May 14, 2013 12:05 am

    *facepalm*


    BillC

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by BillC on Tue May 14, 2013 12:33 am

    Patrick Michael ... you are about a month and a half late for April Fools.

    As to Hessians .. the last advice we got over here about them was "don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes."

    sodo

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by sodo on Tue May 14, 2013 12:40 am

    BillC wrote:Patrick Michael ... you are about a month and a half late for April Fools.

    unfortunately it is no joke Suspect

    As to Hessians .. the last advice we got over here about them was "don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes."

    and now it's "no kesa gatame below yellow belt" alien

    atb

    sodo


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    tafftaz

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by tafftaz on Tue May 14, 2013 12:53 am

    That is a crock of shit. I have never heard anything so ridiculous in all my judo life (and we all know how ridiculous judo rules can be at times).

    sodo

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by sodo on Tue May 14, 2013 1:20 am

    tafftaz wrote:That is a crock of shit. I have never heard anything so ridiculous in all my judo life (and we all know how ridiculous judo rules can be at times).

    That is almost exactly the same thing that I said Smile

    I wonder if they will ask me back Twisted Evil

    atb

    sodo


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    Dutch Budo

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by Dutch Budo on Tue May 14, 2013 1:32 am

    Next up: No more throwing by people taller than 1.80m because there have been reports of serious vertigo attacks.


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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Tue May 14, 2013 1:52 am

    Someone is engaging in serious Urine extraction, methinks !!

    genetic judoka

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by genetic judoka on Tue May 14, 2013 2:06 am

    wow.

    last wednesday I was stuck teaching kesa to some brand new people. after watching them flail about a bit I decided it might be useful for one of them (a fella not too far from my size, whom I hope sticks around for a while) to see what kesa should feel like. so I put him in kesa and told him to escape. after a good 30s of not budging me at all, his comment was "wow, I'm glad I'm not claustrophobic, because I couldn't move an inch. holy s*** that's a frustrating spot to be in." which was good, because that became an opportunity for me to explain that the best way out of kesa, is to not let them put you in kesa. so we worked on some defenses, and some escapes (I feel that the best way for someone to really understand how to apply something, is to understand how to get out of it). and in putting the guy in kesa, and having him see that making uke uncomfortable is the goal, he got much better at it.

    so I can understand their dislike of it, it makes people uncomfortable. with that said, lots of things in judo make people uncomfortable. judo is about getting out of your comfort zone and discovering new things. the sooner you can get people doing that, the better. so this rule is stupid.

    also, I think being claustrophobic is a good thing in judo. I am extremely, unreasonably, excessively claustrophobic. the only reason I can be uke for practicing osae-waza is I know how to turn it off. but as soon as they say "ok, escape" I explode out like my life depends on it, because deep down, that claustrophobic part of me thinks my life does depend on getting out. as such I am extremely hard to hold down, and even harder to put in a position to be held down, because I really, really really don't wanna be there.


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    sodo

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by sodo on Tue May 14, 2013 2:07 am

    Steve Leadbeater wrote:Someone is engaging in serious Urine extraction, methinks !!

    That's what I thought but the guy was serious Rolling Eyes

    atb

    sodo


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    Ricebale

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by Ricebale on Tue May 14, 2013 2:12 am

    sodo wrote:
    Steve Leadbeater wrote:Someone is engaging in serious Urine extraction, methinks !!

    That's what I thought but the guy was serious Rolling Eyes

    atb

    sodo

    Being in the area at the moment everybody is quite serious about everything so I am sure he was Smile

    sodo

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by sodo on Tue May 14, 2013 2:30 am

    Ricebale wrote:
    sodo wrote:
    Steve Leadbeater wrote:Someone is engaging in serious Urine extraction, methinks !!

    That's what I thought but the guy was serious Rolling Eyes

    atb

    sodo

    Being in the area at the moment everybody is quite serious about everything so I am sure he was Smile

    I am working for an irish company in Germany, the original idea was to combine
    "Irish humour with Germany efficiency"

    what we wound up with was

    "Irish efficiency and German humour"
    Crying or Very sad

    atb

    sodo


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue May 14, 2013 2:45 am

    sodo wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:
    sodo wrote:
    Steve Leadbeater wrote:Someone is engaging in serious Urine extraction, methinks !!

    That's what I thought but the guy was serious Rolling Eyes

    atb

    sodo

    Being in the area at the moment everybody is quite serious about everything so I am sure he was Smile

    I am working for an irish company in Germany, the original idea was to combine
    "Irish humour with Germany efficiency"

    what we wound up with was

    "Irish efficienc

    Double ney and German humour"
    Crying or Very sad

    atb

    sodo
    Double negatives are OK in some languages!

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue May 14, 2013 2:46 am

    Did you find out the reason the new rule came about?


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    Davaro

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by Davaro on Tue May 14, 2013 2:51 am

    I think they should also ban all throws for those under yellow belt, as a throw may cause some stress from falling. Not to mention the inherent possibility that the one doing the throwing, may one day become a serial killer-rapist brought on by the enjoyment of throwing someone to the ground in a condecending way

    If they "seriously" think that, why not rather ban judo for anyone under a certain age?

    In fact, I may be in support of such a move some evenings when the 3 six-and-a-half-year-olds get into gear, being the little terrorists that they are...


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    sodo

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by sodo on Tue May 14, 2013 2:53 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Did you find out the reason the new rule came about?

    They told me it was because alot of kids are claustrophobic and kesa gatame cause them stress and scares them, so we should only allow kids (unter 16 years) to use the kazure version and that the grading syllabus has been changed accordingly.

    go figure pale

    atb

    sodo


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    Stacey

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by Stacey on Tue May 14, 2013 2:58 am

    um,sheesh. I just don't know how to respond. Kesa may be claustrophobic for some people so let's avoid teaching it or using it with people lower than yellow belt? Somebody has a serious case of cranial/anal inversion.

    The logic just makes no sense - let's not teach people how to deal with claustrophobia in this one hold (not like it doesn't happen in other holds), let's just avoid this hold altogether, even though it's the first hold that everybody else in the WORLD learns............

    sodo

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by sodo on Tue May 14, 2013 3:13 am

    Stacey wrote:um,sheesh. I just don't know how to respond. Kesa may be claustrophobic for some people so let's avoid teaching it or using it with people lower than yellow belt? Somebody has a serious case of cranial/anal inversion.

    The logic just makes no sense - let's not teach people how to deal with claustrophobia in this one hold (not like it doesn't happen in other holds), let's just avoid this hold altogether, even though it's the first hold that everybody else in the WORLD learns............

    I am just waiting till somebody tells me I am not allowed to teach any throws to anybody below blue belt cyclops

    atb

    sodo


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    wdax

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by wdax on Tue May 14, 2013 3:20 am

    Kesa is not "banned", but kuzure-kesa-gatame is preferred. This is BTW the same in Katame-no-Kata.

    The main problem with kesa-gatame is not Uke, but Tori, who often "learns" holding with his arms by squeezing Ukes neck instead controlling Uke with his body. We want to teach the kids controlling Uke with body-movements from the very beginning.

    That´s the idea behind it. But some gents in Hessen obviously misunderstood some parts of it.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue May 14, 2013 3:24 am

    wdax wrote:Kesa is not "banned", but kuzure-kesa-gatame is preferred. This is BTW the same in Katame-no-Kata.

    The main problem with kesa-gatame is not Uke, but Tori, who often "learns" holding with his arms by squeezing Ukes neck instead controlling Uke with his body. We want to teach the kids controlling Uke with body-movements from the very beginning.

    That´s the idea behind it. But some gents in Hessen obviously misunderstood some parts of it.

    That does make more sense. Still, it's not something that has been recognized anywhere else (or has it?). Certainly the head squeezing is something th at has to be corrected and addressed.

    sodo

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by sodo on Tue May 14, 2013 3:32 am



    That does make more sense. Still, it's not something that has been recognized anywhere else (or has it?). Certainly the head squeezing is something th at has to be corrected and addressed.

    Especially since the whole essence of my lesson was controlling uke by tori adapting and moving to counter and balance uke's attempts to escape rather than hang on for grim death Rolling Eyes

    atb

    sodo


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    wdax

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by wdax on Tue May 14, 2013 4:08 am

    I´m not sure, if anywhere in the world somebody had the same idea. In Germany we have 9 Kyu-grades, and in the program for 8. kyu (first exam) there is kuzure-kesa-gatame and in the program for 7. kyu (yellow) htere is kesa-gatame.

    http://www.judobund.de/media/ordnungen/DJB-Kyu-Programm_2012.pdf

    (The explanation in the paper is the same sodo quoted...., but the main reason is what I wrote above. Most people prefere to follow an argument about the savety of children and tend not to agree, that some teachers are just not competent enough...)

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue May 14, 2013 4:37 am

    sodo wrote:


    That does make more sense. Still, it's not something that has been recognized anywhere else (or has it?). Certainly the head squeezing is something th at has to be corrected and addressed.

    Especially since the whole essence of my lesson was controlling uke by tori adapting and moving to counter and balance uke's attempts to escape rather than hang on for grim death Rolling Eyes

    atb

    sodo

    Yes, I hear you on the adapting and moving issue. Kuzure Kesa is a bit easier in that regard.

    I can imagine a lone teacher in a room full of hyperactive kids with low attention spans trying to get everyone to do something correctly...wait, not that's not imagination...



    Q mystic

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by Q mystic on Tue May 14, 2013 6:11 am

    That's interesting.

    Ironically, I think I got a better kesa-gatame from a different kesa position. I initially used the noob kesa early when I used the koshi-guruma throw alot right into kesa where I always did the lock-down type; squeeze the head while weight on the chest. But I think my kesa actually developed to be active more later, after I started using soto-makikomi and holding the arm only(while pinning his shoulder). I don't know the name but it's just the one arm only osaekomi.



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    sodo

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    Re: Banning Kesa Gatame below yellowbelt

    Post by sodo on Tue May 14, 2013 6:31 am


    (The explanation in the paper is the same sodo quoted...., but the main reason is what I wrote above. Most people prefere to follow an argument about the savety of children and tend not to agree, that some teachers are just not competent enough...)

    @ all,

    OK, go on, hands up all of you that thought I was taking the niss joking thumbs

    atb

    sodo


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