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    <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

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    beyondgrappling

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    <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by beyondgrappling on Wed May 15, 2013 10:58 pm

    I have had heaps of people to ask me to do one and so I finally got around to uploading it to YouTube. Hope you like it


    rjohnston411

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by rjohnston411 on Thu May 16, 2013 12:46 am

    Thank you for the video. I have recently been working on tai otoshi as per my sensei's suggestion.

    Davaro

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by Davaro on Thu May 16, 2013 2:59 am

    Good instructional. Only thing I would add is a bit more emphasis on the fact that this is a te-waza and can be thrown without uke even making contact with the right leg, if done correctly.

    But thanks for sharing!


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    medo

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by medo on Thu May 16, 2013 4:31 am

    Too much emphasis on leg position its a te waza described to me by great people, "as the legs are an afterthought"! "Its like tripping over a matchstick for uke".

    Try this instruction:



    On searching youtube there is so much rubbish there…

    I hope people are not paying for this instruction? Rolling Eyes

    rjohnston411

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by rjohnston411 on Thu May 16, 2013 5:11 am

    medo wrote:Too much emphasis on leg position its a te waza described to me by great people, "as the legs are an afterthought"! "Its like tripping over a matchstick for uke".

    Try this instruction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EezwfWk-Qqw

    On searching youtube there is so much rubbish there…

    I hope people are not paying for this instruction? Rolling Eyes

    Are you a horse? Because I suspect you are with all of your nay-saying

    medo

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by medo on Thu May 16, 2013 6:08 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:

    Are you a horse? Because I suspect you are with all of your nay-saying

    Sorry spent to long doing Judo to praise poor videos when there is but a glimmer of good in them.
    I may be coming over a little negative but I’m not so idyllic as the statement below.


    Judo is a sport and an art, but more than that, a way of life. It teaches us to bend, to adapt instead of staying rigid and breaking.

    It teaches us to think of others. It teaches us the value of consistency and hard work. It teaches us discipline, respect for yourself and others.

    Most of all, it teaches us humanity.


    rjohnston411

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by rjohnston411 on Thu May 16, 2013 6:52 am

    medo wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:

    Are you a horse? Because I suspect you are with all of your nay-saying

    Sorry spent to long doing Judo to praise poor videos when there is but a glimmer of good in them.
    I may be coming over a little negative but I’m not so idyllic as the statement below.


    Judo is a sport and an art, but more than that, a way of life. It teaches us to bend, to adapt instead of staying rigid and breaking.

    It teaches us to think of others. It teaches us the value of consistency and hard work. It teaches us discipline, respect for yourself and others.

    Most of all, it teaches us humanity.


    He asked for a statement for space from a rec centre. Context. Look up the definition of the word. You'd be a terrible public relations person.

    Dave R.

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by Dave R. on Thu May 16, 2013 6:58 am

    medo wrote:Too much emphasis on leg position its a te waza described to me by great people, "as the legs are an afterthought"! "Its like tripping over a matchstick for uke".

    I agree with what you are saying in regards to the legs. I am not looking to be critical of the video. After reading the Masterclass series on Tai Otoshi it's evident that many people have many different interpretations on how Tai Otoshi should be done. In practice I don't ever want uke touching my leg as I don't personally feel it's necessary. That is also my goal in randori.

    rjohnston411

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by rjohnston411 on Thu May 16, 2013 7:12 am

    ^This is a good, constructive post as was Davaro's. Why just be like a youtube poster and say 'this was shit' and offer nothing else.

    genetic judoka

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu May 16, 2013 7:15 am

    medo, it was the last line of your initial post where it stopped being constructive criticism and started being unnecessarily condescending. clearly him posting the video here for free means it's not being paid for.

    there's nothing wrong with not liking someone's instructional video. and really there's nothing wrong with voicing that opinion. but there are many ways to voice that opinion without being so condescending.


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    medo

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by medo on Thu May 16, 2013 7:20 am

    I’m aware of many many styles of Taiotoshi from Starbrooks to Adams to Briggs from GB then the Korean guy who’s name eludes me and Hinaro springs to mind all had their unique ways. But one must understand basics particularly on a training type video aimed at those still developing the required coordination for Taiotoshi, and that’s the problem with this one.

    Sorry grammar and spelling have never been my strong point, but I have trouble understanding the below message.

    He asked for a statement for space from a rec centre. Context. Look up the definition of the word. You'd be a terrible public relations person.

    medo

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by medo on Thu May 16, 2013 7:28 am

    genetic judoka wrote:medo, it was the last line of your initial post where it stopped being constructive criticism and started being unnecessarily condescending. clearly him posting the video here for free means it's not being paid for.

    there's nothing wrong with not liking someone's instructional video. and really there's nothing wrong with voicing that opinion. but there are many ways to voice that opinion without being so condescending.

    Yes I see your point and apologise I suppose its no different than learning Judo from a book and you would pay for that book.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu May 16, 2013 7:35 am

    There exists a video of almost an hour with nothing but tai-otoshi taught by Matsumura Yôichirô, 8th dan. The video, unfortunately is not crisp and technically poor, but the contents worthwhile. There is only a short extract of it available online:



    Matsumura-sensei who is resident in the US is famous for his tai-otoshi.


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    Hanon

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by Hanon on Thu May 16, 2013 7:41 am

    Here we go.

    Tai otoshi is a te waza. The "flick the leg" phrase used in the clip is more in line with an ashi waza.

    I respect ANY poster who kindly offers his clip on a forum for others to learn. It takes bottle as judo is very diverse with an enormous difference in levels of understanding.

    I think the clip shows a kind judoka who is young ans perhaps a little nervous in front of a camera. There are several times when the teacher losses his own plot and clearly stumbles for words, he losses his own track. Non the less the judoka did what we all should do and that is stand and be counted.
    Now comes the problem. Is the clip about learning from his point of view or teaching?
    IF this is a teaching clip then with all the respect in the world we need to be allowed to write a feedback?

    First problem for me was to concentrate on the feet rather than the hands and the debana of tai otoshi.

    There are some very wise words given by the poster and he clearly has enjoyed success with this waza in shiai.
    This is not in debate for me, what is in debate is if what he is doing is actually tai otoshi and if he is teaching well?

    This will, for many, be subjective for me its not. I like and agree with parts of this rendition yet totally disagree with others.

    Tai otoshi has a hand direction....that direction is the position of the directions ukes toes are pointing on his Right foot. To that end there are 90 degrees of attack thus 90 different attack manners. Hell, what I am trying to write is tai otoshi is much more a principle than any ONE throw and with all due, genuine respect, to the author he on times misses the plot. On times however he is spot on. Now to that end is this a teaching clip for other judoka to learn from or a clip of this mans tai otoshi for debate? Neil Adams has a henka waza on tai otoshi that as the author of the clip pointed out. I would not ask Neil to teach tai otoshi to a general class of judoka as Neils rendition is his tokui waza. A teacher simply must teach the canonical version then help each pupil develop their own henka as this clip shows.


    Would members here expect a clip posted by any poster not to be debated and certain aspects highlighted by more experienced judoka? I cant answer that only the members can.

    In brief, not the best teaching clip BUT there are nuggets of gold IF you have the knowledge to see them.

    Mike


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    Hanon

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by Hanon on Thu May 16, 2013 8:07 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:There exists a video of almost an hour with nothing but tai-otoshi taught by Matsumura Yôichirô, 8th dan. The video, unfortunately is not crisp and technically poor, but the contents worthwhile. There is only a short extract of it available online:



    Matsumura-sensei who is resident in the US is famous for his tai-otoshi.

    Watanabe Kisaburo Sensei is the definitive tai otoshi reference for me. I thought I understood tai otoshi until I saw him perform it! His nage no kata was also sublime. Poor uke......

    Is he well? How old would he be now? Any information would be appreciated.

    Mike


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    Res Judicata

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by Res Judicata on Thu May 16, 2013 8:13 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:There exists a video of almost an hour with nothing but tai-otoshi taught by Matsumura Yôichirô, 8th dan. The video, unfortunately is not crisp and technically poor, but the contents worthwhile. There is only a short extract of it available online:



    Matsumura-sensei who is resident in the US is famous for his tai-otoshi.

    Sadly, Sensei Matsumura is not physically able to do this any longer. He sometimes walks with a cane.

    Taiobroshi

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by Taiobroshi on Thu May 16, 2013 8:28 am

    Res Judicata wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:There exists a video of almost an hour with nothing but tai-otoshi taught by Matsumura Yôichirô, 8th dan. The video, unfortunately is not crisp and technically poor, but the contents worthwhile. There is only a short extract of it available online:



    Matsumura-sensei who is resident in the US is famous for his tai-otoshi.

    Sadly, Sensei Matsumura is not physically able to do this any longer. He sometimes walks with a cane.

    One of my favorite judo experiences is taking Sensei Matsumura's Judo PE class at my university a couple of years ago. I was the only person with judo experience in the class and I was teaching one of my fraternity brothers how I do tai otoshi- Sensei Matsumura comes over and says "Is that your favorite technique?" to which I said "Yes." He smiled and said "Mine too" and for the rest of the semester he would nod "yes" or "no" whenever I performed the throw. I was "taught" nothing, but somehow I learned a lot.

    I don't know if he has had any injuries since then, but at that point (fall 2011) he would demonstrate techniques to the class. I was his uke, presumably because his black belt assistant was a) very large and b) had back problems. He's still teaching the class, to my knowledge.

    GregW

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by GregW on Tue May 28, 2013 12:29 pm

    I enjoy watching Tokio Hirano's taiotoshi. This video was once on the old forum. In watching Hirano's version, one sees how it is truly a te waza. Note how the kuzushi is different than the original video that started this thread. The kuzushi is downward, not outward. I would call that an adaptation that works for the player. Of course, Hirano's version is highly stylized, too. I just find it especially illustrative of the technique without the leg or foot position being so inflexible. Hirano demonstrates several directions of attack and several foot placements. The hands are what make it work.


    I'll try and embed the video here. If it doesn't work, click the link here to go to YouTube.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lbhb4P6DIMhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lbhb4P6DIM



    Last edited by GregW on Tue May 28, 2013 12:35 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : fix video link)

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue May 28, 2013 1:37 pm

    GregW wrote:I enjoy watching Tokio Hirano's taiotoshi. This video was once on the old forum. In watching Hirano's version, one sees how it is truly a te waza. Note how the kuzushi is different than the original video that started this thread. The kuzushi is downward, not outward. I would call that an adaptation that works for the player. Of course, Hirano's version is highly stylized, too. I just find it especially illustrative of the technique without the leg or foot position being so inflexible. Hirano demonstrates several directions of attack and several foot placements. The hands are what make it work.

    I'll try and embed the video here. If it doesn't work, click the link here to go to YouTube.

    Hirano made use of at least a dozen of different ways to use tai-otoshi. There is a bit of a problem of transferring these skills in this way to the average Western jûdôka as they will not be familiar with a number of building stones in this approach. It is not a matter of saying "when you do tai-otoshi you have to pull like this or that", which is unfortunately how most Westerners approach tai-otoshi. There are, however, more than a dozen specific and different ways of turning in a throw, and these also all have names. Most Westerners know that you can turn in a throw to the front or backwards, but it goes a lot further than that. What I am talking about are concepts such as hiki-dashi, oi-komi, handô, etc. Hirano's kuzushi depends on this entry and may be entirely different between these entries. On top of that, like with Okano-sensei, Hirano had a number of highly unusual ways of tsukuri which in principle you will have never heard of unless you studied under him. These involve things such as "drumbeat entry", and "gizen-tsukuri", etc. While very complicated if totally unfamiliar with Hirano's approach, it is at the same time also very logical and simple, at least in terms of concept, in that kuzushi really is a consequence of debana, something which sometimes is simply there, while at other times you provoke it. The practical problem in acquiring these skills is obviously that if not intimately familiar with the connection between these different types of entries, kuzushi and debana, one is likely to separate them, or even more than just separating them and only really do that part which one sees. The consequence is that one is trying to mimic a segment of an entity without seeing the entity. One then ends up with a useless and uncoordinated segment. One does not have to be Hirano to do this type of tai-otoshi or all these different types of tai-otoshi, but one must understand how they are different and why they are different and what the entries entail and how they relate to that particular tai-otoshi, and that is a lot easier said than done. Hirano was the exact opposite of a one-trick monkey, but we as mere mortals sometimes should be glad if at least we have one trick that works now and then ! It is a good thing though that you post the clip as it shows some of these different types of entries. In all fairness, the full Masumura video, which I believe is more than an hour or nothing but tai-otoshi is worthwhile too because it also shows many different ways. I reckon though that about any person who was familiar with Hirano's tai-otoshi would probably conclude by saying "I am no Hirano", even though they too will have forgotten more about judo than we may ever know or learn. It's a fascinating area though, since it offers such a wealth to discover of things we can learn and strive for, something that hopefully will prevent us from being bored in our old day.


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    Davaro

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by Davaro on Tue May 28, 2013 5:53 pm

    Could not have been fun being Hirano's uke in the making of that video.... thanks for sharing!


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    Hanon

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by Hanon on Tue May 28, 2013 10:14 pm

    GregW wrote:I enjoy watching Tokio Hirano's taiotoshi. This video was once on the old forum. In watching Hirano's version, one sees how it is truly a te waza. Note how the kuzushi is different than the original video that started this thread. The kuzushi is downward, not outward. I would call that an adaptation that works for the player. Of course, Hirano's version is highly stylized, too. I just find it especially illustrative of the technique without the leg or foot position being so inflexible. Hirano demonstrates several directions of attack and several foot placements. The hands are what make it work.


    I'll try and embed the video here. If it doesn't work, click the link here to go to YouTube.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lbhb4P6DIMhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lbhb4P6DIM


    Take a another look at the clip. Observe Hirano sensei AFTER he has completed kake and uke is on the floor. In a large number, not all, one can observe the hand action of Hirano sensei still spinning!

    There are many henka waza shown. We where taught a 'yoko tai otoshi', in general the debana and kuzushi in tai otoshi is taken in the direction ukes toes are pointing. You can see in some of Hirano's attacks tori takes advantage of another direction that being to take uke sideways in the direction ukes blade of the foot is placed, thus the henka waza 'yoko tai otoshi'.
    Very interesting clip. All of them are pure te waza, its the same principle in all throws its the entry that differs and the direction of completion , the kake phase, that differ.
    The fluidity of movement is to be noted. Though the hands are used the whole body throws. The power coming from the hara. A common problem with Western judo is the overuse of shoulder power and not being flexible in the hips. Exceptions being Angelo Parisi, Brian Jacks, Marcel Clause and just a few more.

    Mike


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    rjohnston411

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by rjohnston411 on Wed May 29, 2013 12:37 am

    Far be it for me to gainsay Hirano, but why does he jump into the attack? It seems like it would open up an attack on him.

    Still, that video is very useful. There have to be like 15 ways of doing tai-o. I like the yoko version. Very tricky.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed May 29, 2013 1:11 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:Far be it for me to gainsay Hirano, but why does he jump into the attack? It seems like it would open up an attack on him.

    If you read what I wrote in my previous post I mentioned that there are more than a dozen different basic types of entries, but which unfortunately the average Westerner does not know. I've already mentioned hiki-dashi and mawari-komi, I believe. Well, tobi-komi or "jumping entry" is just another type of entry. Why is it used ? It is used like any other type of entry when debana dictates or makes it appropriate to use this. In Hirano's approach, tobi-komi is one of the appropriate entries particularly after successful up-down kuzushi, which is a type of kuzushi very typical for Hirano and highly unusual in judo among people who are not students of Hirano ... :-)

    rjohnston411 wrote:
    Still, that video is very useful. There have to be like 15 ways of doing tai-o. I like the yoko version. Very tricky.

    Yes.


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    rjohnston411

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by rjohnston411 on Wed May 29, 2013 2:04 am

    I acquired Udo Quellmalz's Fighting Films video. Interestingly, he seems to prefer many of the throws I like, taiotoshi among them.

    A big point of emphasis was chest contact. I was under the impression that as a te waza, tai-o needed more space. Also, he doesn't seem to use a backward pivot, instead turning with a big pull and sort of stabbing his leg out about 3/4ths of the way through.

    Hanon

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    Re: <Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

    Post by Hanon on Wed May 29, 2013 3:45 am

    There is a limit to what can be taught or explained via this media. I am certain could CK sensei or myself be able to teach tai otoshi ON a tatami you would soon grasp the throws various manners.

    It is unwise to look for the physical aspects, even though they are vital, tai otoshi is a principle and I just cannot explain that with this media. If you where thrown with the tai otoshi of Watanabe Kisaburo sensei one simply got the message through the feel of what he did. Same with the seoinage of Inokuma sensei.

    It is also a grave mistake to copy ANY experts throws to the letter. No one and I mean no one executed tai otoshi like Hirano. I have never seen a hane goshi like that of Hirano the younger. Michigami had an o soto gari like no other as does Okano sensei. These sensei have dedicated a massive percentage of their lives to learning judo and fitting themselves to its actions. They are all unique judoka with unique waza as we all are.

    I would guess that most of us trying those attacks by Hirano would fail as we are ......not Hirano sensei. This is not being flippant bit explaining the danger of buying a video or seeing a clip and trying, un supervised, to emulate exactly what these judoka could do. Yamashita sensei was known for his o soto gari but it was nothing like that of either Michigami sensei not Okano sensei yet all of them knew the throw inside out and back to front.

    Thus, its wise to learn the basic go kyo version but learn it well then understand the throw and what tai otoshi is and what it is not. There are core elements to each throw that make it what it is. Add to that ones own body, psychology, experience and knowledge and our throws change all the time.

    I enjoy reading books from those great masters like kudo Kazuzo sensei who taught the 'classic' gokyo and allowed the reader his or her own space to adjust and develop a given technique to fit tori's attributes. For example, I am never going to grasp Ko soto gari, period, its just not for me. Tai otoshi I understand so can teach it to a class then walk around and help each pupil adapt that waza to make it work for them.

    One way to practice this waza is to start with debana and kuzushi. try to throw with out stretching the Right leg out, this was its original form. Tori can remain in more or less shizenhontai as its not the action of the leg that thows but very much what the hands achieve in the opening milliseconds of the waza.

    I rather think tai otoshi is a throw that looks easy yet when performed correctly is very difficult.

    Mike


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