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    Hanon

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    Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Hanon on Thu May 16, 2013 8:44 am

    Is judo healthy for the mind and body as kano Shihan envisaged? Is it only now the case that most of us by 60 years of age are knackered? Non of my elderly sensei where in the state I am in and they where still teaching 20 years later than me? Did they practice better or where we just too aggressive when younger? I read about some of you guys and gals having surgery before you even end your teens?

    I cannot myself any longer even practice ju no kata! At HOME last night I nearly dislocated my hip just doing warm ups in ready to begin some exercise!

    Mentally I am also down because I am so physically screwed and so this cycle perpetuates itself. Should have kept to badminton me thinks?

    Mike


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    Stacey

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Stacey on Thu May 16, 2013 9:34 am

    I lost a joint in my thumb when I was 15, thanks to my older brother. My older brother has never stepped in a judo dojo in his life. I've had, what, 13 surgeries overall? Sorry, but I came into judo knackered as my shoulders and knees were toast by the time I was 18 from swimming.

    Now, Mark Spitz was in his 40's trying to make the US swim team. He hasn't had the physical problems I have. Why? Genetics and generation. When I was a kid, we were told to bounce into our stretches. We now know that's not a good thing. When I was a kid, the motto was, "no pain, no gain". We now know better than that. Spitz came from a generation where it was acceptable to swim fast with a mustache.

    I'm not saying that the emphasis on shiai hasn't had an influence on people's bodies. I'm sure it has. I'm sure the number of international, national, regional, and local competitions today is greater than it was 40 years ago. That statistic alone probably raises the average number of judo boo-boos substantially, and it also goes to our constant discourse about the purpose of randori and why there's no such thing as "winning" in ronduri.

    Maybe we need a pole concerning who's healthy, number of surgeries, number of judo related surgeries, and average number of competitions per year. Maybe that will shed some light on the subject.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu May 16, 2013 10:50 am

    Agree with all the rest. Additionally, I think that physical and mental awareness is very important in judo. Some have it, others don't. It can be taught, but it is not something that is typically taught. Awareness can help prevent many injuries in judo. May injuries are caused during randori by other judoka. Some judoka when they start doing randori forget everything that goes on around them, while a minority is blessed with eyes on their back and situational awareness.

    Doing the right thing when injured is important too. Perhaps less today than it used to be there also was a macho attitude particularly among men. Warm-ups and stretches, or warm baths were for wimps. An old (modern Western) jujutsu instructor of mine used to be with the Rangers. His fishermen stories were legendary. When I had classes from him and he was in his early 60s he could barely do anything due to the arthritis, arthrose, and other rheumatoid affections. Acting macho just for the macho thing often has a price, even though many pay by credit. You'll feel price hurting long before retirement.


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    Hanon

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Hanon on Thu May 16, 2013 11:12 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Agree with all the rest. Additionally, I think that physical and mental awareness is very important in judo. Some have it, others don't. It can be taught, but it is not something that is typically taught. Awareness can help prevent many injuries in judo. May injuries are caused during randori by other judoka. Some judoka when they start doing randori forget everything that goes on around them, while a minority is blessed with eyes on their back and situational awareness.

    Doing the right thing when injured is important too. Perhaps less today than it used to be there also was a macho attitude particularly among men. Warm-ups and stretches, or warm baths were for wimps. An old (modern Western) jujutsu instructor of mine used to be with the Rangers. His fishermen stories were legendary. When I had classes from him and he was in his early 60s he could barely do anything due to the arthritis, arthrose, and other rheumatoid affections. Acting macho just for the macho thing often has a price, even though many pay by credit. You'll feel price hurting long before retirement.

    Looking back I would guess my neck, back and shoulder problems began when I was a small boy. There simply was no discrimination between kids and adults. if we went on the mat we where treated like all other pupils. If a child could not handle that they simply left, plenty more where they came from attitude and who needs then any way getting under our feet. Kids today are treated like precious gems and the slightest knock or tear brings the class to a hold.

    My father told me that boys don't cry. I would not have minded but he said that to me when I was 6 months old! affraid

    Education has progressed, than God, in so many areas of judo thanks to semi and professional training of teachers. The exercises we had to perform would today land a teacher in court! Even the late great Kudo kazuzo sensei in his books Dynamic judo is shown to have his ukes performing some very VERY unwise neck exercises.

    The past culture of men being men ie macho macho is still about in the Latin countries but in a different way, its more hot air than true grit. I guess I am 50 50 when it comes to teaching attitude. I don't expect males not to cry but I do expect them to work and work hard with their judo, it pays dividends in training the spirit. Problem for me is all I have left is the spirit! Embarassed Laughing

    Mike


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    afja_lm139

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by afja_lm139 on Thu May 16, 2013 11:37 pm

    I must have practiced Judo on another planet, but other than a few minor problems and lots of blood on my GI -- we played Judo in earnest back in the day -- it didn't seem to bother most of my body or mind. Maybe the modern Judoka should review their techniques and find out why their body gets bashed up so much. Hum. Yeah, my total knee replacement was due to genes from my mother and arthritis; last rime I checked Judo did not cause that.

    Gus

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Gus on Thu May 16, 2013 11:46 pm

    Judo has been good for me physically - I am not an elite Judoka though.
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    JudoTerrier

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by JudoTerrier on Fri May 17, 2013 12:07 am

    Judo has been hard on my knees--but the worst injury was very early on and believe me I won't be making that mistake again! OTOH, I'm probably in the best overall condition (strength and wind) I've ever been in, and that is also due to judo. Not to mention the benefit it's been to my mental health. I can live with the gimpy knees--so far they aren't bad enough to keep me from doing things. I just have to be more careful and slow down.

    Erika

    Kasrkin

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Kasrkin on Fri May 17, 2013 12:30 am

    I run, cycle, practice Judo, swin occasionally, do weights and spent 6 years in the Army.

    Of all of those, I'd estimate 90% of injuries I've sustained through physical activity have come from Judo. Sprained knees, fingers, elbows and shoulders, damaged toes and a bad back.

    I sometimes also wonder how people that train 6 or 7 days a week can possibly keep going, I don't believe that I am prone to injury as I have led a very active adult life and nothing apart from Judo has caused me issues. I took 3 months off last year for a knackered toe joint and those three months were the most injury free and enjoyable months I could remember.

    I will soon be visiting a different club so will see if a change in training will help the situation, otherwise I am seriously considering giving Judo up. When a sport means you are injured to one degree or another for well over 6 months of every year I think anyone would consider if it's really worth it. I started Judo doe self defence reasons, what's the point of having the knowledge when most of the time you'd be unable to physically do the bloody stuff? Neutral


    Last edited by Kasrkin on Fri May 17, 2013 12:34 am; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Guest on Fri May 17, 2013 12:32 am

    Reading this thread makes me feel like I should strongly consider picking up Kitesurfing in favor of Judo. As I get older and more frequently injured I wonder if the price I pay physically is worth it especially when I find that at almost all Judo clubs in my area I'm not as valuable of a student as the children, teens, and young adults. Don't get me wrong, I really love doing Judo but if things keep going the way they are for me I will come to a cross roads one day where I have to make a hard decision. 60 is supposed to be the new 40 but many older gents I have come across in Judo who are close to 60 have physical issues as if they're closer to 80. I don't want to be that guy.

    By the way Hanon, I'm grateful for you creating this topic and I'm curious to see where this will go. This is the first time I think that I've ever really openly addressed the elephant in the room.
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    micahpharris

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    Mixed Bag

    Post by micahpharris on Fri May 17, 2013 12:41 am

    I think its a mixed bag. I'm 41 and have just started judo but I've been involved in competitive sports, most of them contact sports, since I was 7 or 8 years old. I've had a knee surgery and two hernia surgeries, a broken ankle, and several sprains. Nonetheless, when I go to my judo club or even to my kung fu school (where I hold much higher rank than my judo rokkyu) I feel fairly able to keep up with people many years junior to me. Moreover, many folks my age who are inactive suffer a plethora of health problems that, while not injury related, are probably much more threatening to their long-term health. The biggest difference for me at 41 is how I feel compared to how I felt at 21, 31, etc. My injuries take much longer to heal and I'm hurt more easily than I used to be. Still, though, my active lifestyle has kept me young relative to other people my age.

    Kasrkin

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Kasrkin on Fri May 17, 2013 12:55 am

    Dave R. wrote:By the way Hanon, I'm grateful for you creating this topic and I'm curious to see where this will go. This is the first time I think that I've ever really openly addressed the elephant in the room.

    Same here, it's an interesting subject and one that I'd love to hear other peoples opinions of.

    samsmith2424

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by samsmith2424 on Fri May 17, 2013 1:49 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Doing the right thing when injured is important too. Perhaps less today than it used to be there also was a macho attitude particularly among men. Warm-ups and stretches, or warm baths were for wimps. .

    I agreed with the gist of what you said but I do wonder if warm ups have been over-emphasised. I can recall some long warm ups which seemed completly unnecessary especially when one is young and fit and movement is easy.
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    JudoStu

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by JudoStu on Fri May 17, 2013 2:04 am

    Another one here who was late to Judo (started when I was 37 and am now 40), but have been active doing various sports and Martial Arts all my life. Doing Judo has given me a reason, a purpose to push myself harder in the gym or when I’m out running and for that reason I’m as fit as I’ve ever been. That said I do ache like hell after some hard randori, especially my fingers and wrists and various other bruises that I’ve picked up along the way. These aches and pains take a lot longer to go away than when I was in my 20’s.

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    JudoMojo

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by JudoMojo on Fri May 17, 2013 2:19 am

    In 4 years judo I have:

    Dislocated kneecap twice.

    Dislocated toe.

    Severely cut toe (could see my tendon).

    Slightly dodgy shoulder

    ... I wonder what this list will look like in 10 years... or 20 years.
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    Q mystic

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Q mystic on Fri May 17, 2013 7:12 am

    Hanon wrote:Is judo healthy for the mind and body as kano Shihan envisaged? Is it only now the case that most of us by 60 years of age are knackered? Non of my elderly sensei where in the state I am in and they where still teaching 20 years later than me? Did they practice better or where we just too aggressive when younger?

    I have the feeling(lol) that they practiced better and were more aggressive at the same time. Mostly anyway. I really think that impact from judo is a huge deal. Not just the landing but the amount of force/impact abled with the gi. I think that to be able to judo as anyone would like that one really, really has to take serious to make themselves tuffer and very durable. As one gets older, they really have to make training judo a lifestyle.

    I also believe that there is a bonus to those that train hard judo through puberty. I read recently that through puberty, the brain hardwires it self pretty good and if the body is growing/changing fast it seems like the brain would make the body similar. Not the same as, of course, but similar result to changing your genes. That this could possibly have later in life advantages.

    Injuries are, well, injuries.lol Not alot can be done but prepping the body properly, across the board, could help.

    There's one of my sensei. He was always a kata-like, tech-like, sensei and didn't get a whole lot of respect(that way) from the fighting type students. He would occaisionally randori heavy but not like we thought he should. Anyway, he's always trained like a hi-comp fighter, outside of mass randori, even tho he wasn't a huge fan of it. I still fight him every few yrs when we get together and I go hard because he's tuff. And seems to like it when we do. Pushes me.lol I think he's 65 now. Fought him about 5 times in his 60s. The most fit/tuffest man I know at his age.


    **what's with the edit count? Just adding, and correcting errors.=) Geesh.


    Last edited by Q mystic on Fri May 17, 2013 7:37 am; edited 7 times in total


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    tafftaz

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by tafftaz on Fri May 17, 2013 7:24 am

    Stupidity is a close partner to most judoka.
    How many of us have trained while injured or competed when not 100%?
    I have had many injuries through judo some major ,some minor. Some were my fault,some others.
    In most cases I was stupid enough to train well before my recovery period was up.
    I never quite got to elite level,was not good enough, but not through lack of trying.
    I have, however, trained hard randori and had shiai against judoka at elite level and never been injured.
    Josh Resnick once said that the most dangerous person on the tatami was a newly promoted adult male green belt.
    This I can agree with to a point as most of my injuries have come when training with lower grades.

    ....but I go back to my original point of stupidity....it follows most judoka everywhere and whispers "go on,you'll be ok.It's only a broken toe or whatever", and stupidly,most judoka listen to it. Me included.
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    Q mystic

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Q mystic on Fri May 17, 2013 10:08 am

    tafftaz wrote:Stupidity is a close partner to most judoka.
    How many of us have trained while injured or competed when not 100%?
    I have had many injuries through judo some major ,some minor. Some were my fault,some others.
    In most cases I was stupid enough to train well before my recovery period was up.
    I never quite got to elite level,was not good enough, but not through lack of trying.
    I have, however, trained hard randori and had shiai against judoka at elite level and never been injured.
    Josh Resnick once said that the most dangerous person on the tatami was a newly promoted adult male green belt.
    This I can agree with to a point as most of my injuries have come when training with lower grades.

    ....but I go back to my original point of stupidity....it follows most judoka everywhere and whispers "go on,you'll be ok.It's only a broken toe or whatever", and stupidly,most judoka listen to it. Me included.

    Thats the key imo. I think even elite training/comp is fine if one does it with a brain and takes care of him/herself. Don't ever succumb to the pressure of time/age(relative of course on that, 1984 LA Olys being an example) but do train to a point where you are at the top of the bar of optimal and cool it where training anymore pays only so little pay-out, in the bigger pic.


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    seatea

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by seatea on Fri May 17, 2013 11:16 am

    Many of the older people in this thread aren't taking into account the many positive physical effects of judo. You might have dodgy knees/back/shoulders etc but you will also have a lower risk of heart disease, diabetes, dementia and cancer. That is a fair trade in my opinion. Plus, who is to say you wouldn't have developed bad knees/back (or whatever) as a natural part of ageing without judo?

    As for the mental aspect, well, I took up judo in a conscious effort to improve my mental health and it is a decision I don't regret.
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    Q mystic

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Q mystic on Fri May 17, 2013 11:48 am

    seatea wrote:Many of the older people in this thread aren't taking into account the many positive physical effects of judo. You might have dodgy knees/back/shoulders etc but you will also have a lower risk of heart disease, diabetes, dementia and cancer. That is a fair trade in my opinion. Plus, who is to say you wouldn't have developed bad knees/back (or whatever) as a natural part of ageing without judo?

    As for the mental aspect, well, I took up judo in a conscious effort to improve my mental health and it is a decision I don't regret.

    Not to mention that those with dodgy knees are still prolly elite physical specimen compared. I mean, who still wrestles at 70yrs old?lol Dayum.


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    Stacey

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Stacey on Fri May 17, 2013 1:26 pm

    So last year I'm playing my bari sax, doing a nice walking bass line and I notice I'm having problems with my right ring finger kinking up and getting stuck. I look at my hands and notice that some of my fingers aren't exactly straight anymore. I look at my toes, and, well, they were much prettier before I started judo.

    We do have a problem with injuries. How many of us just buddy tape fingers and toes? How many of us can look at our fingers and toes and see that they are straight? Now, I'm not saying that it's wrong, but we are pretty dismissive of some injuries, especially fingers and toes, and maybe even a nose or a rib. I have no idea what or when I did something to my right ring finger, but now I have to tape a slight bend in the danged thing so that it doesn't catch and keep a key closed when I don't want it to be. Yes, that's right, I'm taping to play my sax.

    Yes, there is a fair amount of stupidity, and there is a fair amount of benefit. When I was getting my ankle fixed for the first time, the nurse asked me how I broke it, and then she gave me that look like, "grow up" before asking me how old I was (late 30's). I basically replied, I could be here for a broken ankle, or I could be here for clogged arteries; which would you prefer? Me, I'll take a judo accident - at least I can laugh about it and get to work the next day. That said, my left leg sucks. My knee is trashed by swimming, my left ankle in a pickup game of soccer when I was 21, and my left hip in kick boxing when I was 25-6. 20 years of judo hasn't let me ignore those injuries, and in fact I've become a danger to myself and others because mechanically the leg just doesn't bend enough or allow me to straighten once bent.

    Personally, I think stupidity is inherent with young adults. I also think young adults in charge of kids can pass their stupidity onto the bodies of kids under the guise of authority (and with parental approval because, hey, they don't know any better unless they themselves do athletics). It is a miracle that any of us survive to procreate, let alone see our kids procreate.

    And, yes, in my 20's my goal in life was to not make the Darwin Awards list......
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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Fri May 17, 2013 5:59 pm

    Stacey wrote:

    And, yes, in my 20's my goal in life was to not make the Darwin Awards list......


    I would say that for the majority of us,

    failing to make the Darwin Awards is our biggest failure in life lol!

    Gus

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Gus on Fri May 17, 2013 8:14 pm

    Jesus man - footbal/soccer is way worse than Judo.
    I remember a guy who was in his sixties who was about to go and fight for an hour wrestling - he was complaining about this joint, that bone, this injury etc etc - till someone pointed out that not many men in their sixties would be physically capable of doing anything like that at all. Its the elite giys who will really suffer later though - and no I dont think thats what Kano had in mind.

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by Guest on Sat May 18, 2013 12:08 am

    tafftaz wrote:
    Josh Resnick once said that the most dangerous person on the tatami was a newly promoted adult male green belt.

    Amen to that. They know just enough to be very reckless, generally speaking of course.
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    rjohnston411

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by rjohnston411 on Sat May 18, 2013 1:35 am

    Doing anything at the highest of levels is definitely not a healthy thing.

    tafftaz

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    Re: Judo - Healthy?

    Post by tafftaz on Sat May 18, 2013 4:50 am

    In all honesty, as harsh as my earlier post sounded, and knowing all the injuries I have had,I would do it all again in a heartbeat.

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