E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    Origin Of Techniques

    Share

    gester

    Posts : 42
    Join date : 2013-02-07

    Origin Of Techniques

    Post by gester on Thu May 16, 2013 3:54 pm

    I'm looking for information on what techniques came from Tenshin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu and other Jujutsu schools as well as ones developed by Dr. Kano, Mifune, and other Kodokan members. The books that I've checked have only sketchy information.

    Information and/or sources will be appreciated.

    Regards,
    Gester


    wdax

    Posts : 176
    Join date : 2013-01-22

    Re: Origin Of Techniques

    Post by wdax on Thu May 16, 2013 4:28 pm

    You need the original japanese or the german translation of Daigo´s work about Nage-waza. There are some old books - all in japanese - about f.ex. tenjin-shinyo-ryu, in which you can find their katame- and atemi-waza.
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 857
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Origin Of Techniques

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri May 17, 2013 12:37 am

    gester wrote:I'm looking for information on what techniques came from Tenshin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu and other Jujutsu schools as well as ones developed by Dr. Kano, Mifune, and other Kodokan members. The books that I've checked have only sketchy information.

    Information and/or sources will be appreciated.

    Regards,
    Gester


    This is only known for some techniques. With many others it is not known either because the information is not available or because ancestor techniques existed in several other schools. On the other hand, even when it is not known, sometimes interesting links can be made with other schools even if it cannot be proven that it goes back to a specific techniques. I have addressed some of this in some scholarly writings, and am also doing much more extensively, i.e. for all techniques I was able to trace or references are known, in a larger scholarly volume on judo. You'll have to be patient as this is work of extended duration. In the mean time, as wdax as already suggested, Daigo's book offers some of that information. Apart from that you may always ask about a specific technique here. It may be useful for us to understand why precisely you want to know this. What are your plans with this information ? After all, unless you can also place that information in its proper context, are familiar with those schools, can actually prove the links by documentary evidence, I do not immediately see the practical use of it, and the information could sometimes lead to embarrassment if it isn't properly understood and attempts are being made to use it in teaching or writing. Chances for this are substantial when you're not intimately familiar with Japanese since sometimes techniques exist in another school but under a different name, while the same name also exists in another school but covers in fact and entirely different technique. I have addressed some of that information on the old forum, but am unsure if that forum is still searchable.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    gester

    Posts : 42
    Join date : 2013-02-07

    Re: Origin Of Techniques

    Post by gester on Fri May 17, 2013 3:28 pm

    Thank you for you reply Cichorei Kano. I much enjoyed you posts on the old site. I still check from time to time hoping to be able to use it.

    Although, for myself, I would like far reaching and deep information on the subject that's not what I'm after now. I want to give some simple historical background to students that only know the physical part of judo. When I say that judo techniques came Tenshin Shinyo, Kito Ryu,etc, and by Dr. Kano and other Kodokan players I want to be ready when someone say "such as?" and have a few examples to give.

    Regards,
    G
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1108
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Origin Of Techniques

    Post by NBK on Fri May 17, 2013 10:24 pm

    Part of the problem with tracking those down is that there are so many similar if not identical techniques in many different schools.

    Also, many judo techniques taken from other schools have been heavily modified. From time to time it is possible to track the origin of a technique to a particular school or schools, but only if you have a good library and read old Japanese, and a good understanding of the development of judo.

    Here's an example from Tenjin Shin'yo ryu:

    What's that? Osoto gari? Osoto otoshi? Hiki taoshi? Or something else?

    Kano shihan himself wrote that many judo techniques came from Tenjin Shin'yo and Kito ryu, but also from many others not specified. One of the most interesting things to me is that he wrote that Kime no Kata was the basis of all of judo, and that its techniques came from a number of schools. He also noted that Ju no Kata was a kata to teach and practice the basics of attack and defense.

    So, to me the most interesting techniques in judo are those lost from the early days the art itself.
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 857
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Origin Of Techniques

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat May 18, 2013 12:45 am

    NBK wrote:Part of the problem with tracking those down is that there are so many similar if not identical techniques in many different schools.

    Also, many judo techniques taken from other schools have been heavily modified. From time to time it is possible to track the origin of a technique to a particular school or schools, but only if you have a good library and read old Japanese, and a good understanding of the development of judo.

    Here's an example from Tenjin Shin'yo ryu:

    What's that? Osoto gari? Osoto otoshi? Hiki taoshi? Or something else?

    Kano shihan himself wrote that many judo techniques came from Tenjin Shin'yo and Kito ryu, but also from many others not specified. One of the most interesting things to me is that he wrote that Kime no Kata was the basis of all of judo, and that its techniques came from a number of schools. He also noted that Ju no Kata was a kata to teach and practice the basics of attack and defense.

    So, to me the most interesting techniques in judo are those lost from the early days the art itself.

    Specifically for the techniques in jûdô that originate in TSYR, they have all been catalogued by Professor Tôdô. Rather than redoing his work here, I would refer to his relatively easily available work.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    rjohnston411

    Posts : 109
    Join date : 2013-02-12
    Age : 30
    Location : Ontario

    Re: Origin Of Techniques

    Post by rjohnston411 on Sat May 18, 2013 1:39 am

    Certain techniques probably came from Sumo and traditional wrestling as well. O goshi, tsuri goshi, kubi nage/koshi guruma and probably others. You see a lot of 'Judo' techniques in traditional wrestling of all nations.

    Tai-otoshi apparently evolved from a throw done to take advantage of a top-heavy armoured opponent. I think someone here (or maybe on Bullshido) posted that and I can see how it would work in heavy armour.
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1108
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Origin Of Techniques

    Post by NBK on Sat May 18, 2013 9:12 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    NBK wrote:Part of the problem with tracking those down is that there are so many similar if not identical techniques in many different schools.

    Also, many judo techniques taken from other schools have been heavily modified. From time to time it is possible to track the origin of a technique to a particular school or schools, but only if you have a good library and read old Japanese, and a good understanding of the development of judo.

    Here's an example from Tenjin Shin'yo ryu:

    What's that? Osoto gari? Osoto otoshi? Hiki taoshi? Or something else?

    Kano shihan himself wrote that many judo techniques came from Tenjin Shin'yo and Kito ryu, but also from many others not specified. One of the most interesting things to me is that he wrote that Kime no Kata was the basis of all of judo, and that its techniques came from a number of schools. He also noted that Ju no Kata was a kata to teach and practice the basics of attack and defense.

    So, to me the most interesting techniques in judo are those lost from the early days the art itself.

    Specifically for the techniques in jûdô that originate in TSYR, they have all been catalogued by Professor Tôdô. Rather than redoing his work here, I would refer to his relatively easily available work.

    You're no fun.... I wanted to see the response.

    Professor Tôdô wrote, over time, what is AFAIK the most complete mapping of TYSR techniques to judo. Other schools seem harder to track.

    In the earliest days of judo the 'Tenshin Shin'yo ryu kata' was specifically cited as part of the standard Kodokan curriculum and often in demonstrations, so similarities would have been more obvious.

    We flogged the origins of Kime no Kata without notable success in the old forum, but Kano wrote that its techniques were collected from a number of (unspecified) schools.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Origin Of Techniques

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:42 am