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    Heirarchy in groundwork

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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:39 am

    I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

    the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

    if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

    for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.


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    rjohnston411

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by rjohnston411 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:46 am

    Mune gatame and kami shiho ftw!
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    Dutch Budo

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Dutch Budo on Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:17 am

    genetic judoka wrote:I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

    the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

    if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

    for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.

    The guard is a good starting point to get your offensive going from, but it shouldn't be an end position. This is something Ive learnt the hard way. I liked to chill in guard a lot, eventually getting some points scored against me and losing the fight. If you like guard, that's a good thing, but use it to attack and go to a scoring position. Submissions from the guard can work, but at the higher levels they just wont fall for it anymore. How many triangles from the guard do you see at the black belt levels in BJJ? Backmount choke is the number one submission, followed by the armbar from top (mount or side mount).


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    Q mystic

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Q mystic on Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:24 am

    Do you mean in guard or doing guard, GJ?


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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by genetic judoka on Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:54 am

    dutch, you make good points. I don't see the guard as an ending position, but merely a starting position. but at my level of experience I'd rather be the guy on bottom trying to sweep than the guy on top trying to pass any day. with that said, I still will happily go into someone's guard in BJJ just to get practice passing. and it's very rare for my guard to be passed by a non black belt. it almost gets passed quite frequently, but I'm a sneaky dude.

    I'm beginning to be a specialist in chokes from the bottom. it's by far my favorite way to win in newaza. in fact I put a purple belt to sleep last BJJ class with a cross choke in 3 seconds. weirdest experience I've ever had. dude was on top of me, eyes wide open, convulsing like he was having a seizure. then 5 seconds later he was awake, with no idea what had just happened. I was scared there for a bit. never seen someone shake like that.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:10 am

    Dutch Budo wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

    the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

    if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

    for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.



    The guard is a good starting point to get your offensive going from, but it shouldn't be an end position. This is something Ive learnt the hard way. I liked to chill in guard a lot, eventually getting some points scored against me and losing the fight. If you like guard, that's a good thing, but use it to attack and go to a scoring position. Submissions from the guard can work, but at the higher levels they just wont fall for it anymore. How many triangles from the guard do you see at the black belt levels in BJJ? Backmount choke is the number one submission, followed by the armbar from top (mount or side mount).
    I often see what you describe when I "roll" with less experienced BJJ players in Judo or BJJ. They get me in their guard, and get this smug look on their faces like they have accomplished something major. Sometimes I just sit there with good posture and do nothing and stare at them. Then the complaints about how I"m not trying to pass start coming up....LOL.

     This happened to me a lot back before BJJ was as popular as it is now, as well. I tell my Judo students that the full guard is good to recover, but not someplace to just "hang out", especially in context of Judo randori/matches. Some of my judo students cross train in BJJ and get stuck on trying for armbars and triangles from guard, which is not a bad thing (practice is good!), however, I point out that in a Judo match (they all compete regularly), they might want to consider sweeping/reversing to a pin if the sub attempt fails, and not get so hung up on subbing the guy.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:35 am

    genetic judoka wrote:I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

    the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

    if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

    for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.

    I have pins I "prefer" or maybe"positions" is a better way to put it, but I try not to get too hung up on whichever one I'm in. They all have their pluses and minuses one way or another. Some people are very good at getting out of certain pins, others not so good. You have to learn to feel and predict escape attempts to anticipate, and train the counters to the escapes, plus changing to chokes/armbars if chance arises.
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    rjohnston411

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by rjohnston411 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:53 am

    I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:23 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.
    Or submission leads to pinning...it all kinda goes together...
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by afulldeck on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:56 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.


    Or submission leads to pinning...it all kinda goes together...

    Damn, I was hoping to keep that a secret.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:14 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.




    Or submission leads to pinning...it all kinda goes together...



    Damn, I was hoping to keep that a secret.
    One of my degrees is M.Sc. Obviousology...
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by afulldeck on Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:40 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.






    Or submission leads to pinning...it all kinda goes together...





    Damn, I was hoping to keep that a secret.


    One of my degrees is M.Sc. Obviousology...
    You must of graduated aversari obfuscatus?


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:15 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.






    Or submission leads to pinning...it all kinda goes together...





    Damn, I was hoping to keep that a secret.


    One of my degrees is M.Sc. Obviousology...
    You must of graduated aversari obfuscatus?

    It wasn't obvious at the time...
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by afulldeck on Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:28 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.
    Or submission leads to pinning...it all kinda goes together...
    Damn, I was hoping to keep that a secret.
    One of my degrees is M.Sc. Obviousology...
    You must of graduated aversari obfuscatus?

    It wasn't obvious at the time...


    Laughing Your good...


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    Q mystic

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Q mystic on Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:00 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Dutch Budo wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

    the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

    if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

    for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.



    The guard is a good starting point to get your offensive going from, but it shouldn't be an end position. This is something Ive learnt the hard way. I liked to chill in guard a lot, eventually getting some points scored against me and losing the fight. If you like guard, that's a good thing, but use it to attack and go to a scoring position. Submissions from the guard can work, but at the higher levels they just wont fall for it anymore. How many triangles from the guard do you see at the black belt levels in BJJ? Backmount choke is the number one submission, followed by the armbar from top (mount or side mount).
    I often see what you describe when I "roll" with less experienced BJJ players in Judo or BJJ. They get me in their guard, and get this smug look on their faces like they have accomplished something major. Sometimes I just sit there with good posture and do nothing and stare at them. Then the complaints about how I"m not trying to pass start coming up....LOL.

     This happened to me a lot back before BJJ was as popular as it is now, as well. I tell my Judo students that the full guard is good to recover, but not someplace to just "hang out", especially in context of Judo randori/matches. Some of my judo students cross train in BJJ and get stuck on trying for armbars and triangles from guard, which is not a bad thing (practice is good!), however, I point out that in a Judo match (they all compete regularly), they might want to consider sweeping/reversing to a pin if the sub attempt fails, and not get so hung up on subbing the guy.

    I've some questions,

    Would Ronda have had such an explosive top control sub game in mma if she had actually learnt bjj some 3 or 4 years ago, before entering mma?  Would Akiyama have his same successful to-top control that he has used in mma if he had cross-trained bjj heavily prior? If North American and other nations have had a decent style of top control from maybe being somewhat wrestling nations, are we now seeing a substitution of the 'wrestling' aspect of judo for the 'bjj' aspect?

    Did somewhat still young at the time, Judoka and 2000 silver Oly medalist Bu-Kyung Jung make the mistake of buying into bjj for his mma career rather than demo his judo concept?


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    PointyShinyBurning

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by PointyShinyBurning on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:41 pm

    Q mystic wrote:
    Would Ronda have had such an explosive top control sub game in mma if she had actually learnt bjj some 3 or 4 years ago, before entering mma?
    BJJ doesn't somehow magically restrict your ability to play on top, so I don't see how it could have done her any harm?
    Would Akiyama have his same successful to-top control that he has used in mma if he had cross-trained bjj heavily prior?
    Akiyama's top control has not been successful at the UFC level at all. He's been subbed, swept and/or easily escaped in every fight where he's thrown people.

    If North American and other nations have had a decent style of top control from maybe being somewhat wrestling nations, are we now seeing a substitution of the 'wrestling' aspect of judo for the 'bjj' aspect?
    What?
    Did somewhat still young at the time, Judoka and 2000 silver Oly medalist Bu-Kyung Jung make the mistake of buying into bjj for his mma career rather than demo his judo concept?
    He tried to "demo his Judo concept", unfortunately his take-down game without the gi against the wolves he was thrown to wasn't up to it. That said, he did surprisingly well against Aoki from his guard. Should he have given Aoki his back, that works out so well for everyone else...
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    Dutch Budo

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Dutch Budo on Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:15 am

    Q mystic wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Dutch Budo wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

    the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

    if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

    for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.



    The guard is a good starting point to get your offensive going from, but it shouldn't be an end position. This is something Ive learnt the hard way. I liked to chill in guard a lot, eventually getting some points scored against me and losing the fight. If you like guard, that's a good thing, but use it to attack and go to a scoring position. Submissions from the guard can work, but at the higher levels they just wont fall for it anymore. How many triangles from the guard do you see at the black belt levels in BJJ? Backmount choke is the number one submission, followed by the armbar from top (mount or side mount).
    I often see what you describe when I "roll" with less experienced BJJ players in Judo or BJJ. They get me in their guard, and get this smug look on their faces like they have accomplished something major. Sometimes I just sit there with good posture and do nothing and stare at them. Then the complaints about how I"m not trying to pass start coming up....LOL.

     This happened to me a lot back before BJJ was as popular as it is now, as well. I tell my Judo students that the full guard is good to recover, but not someplace to just "hang out", especially in context of Judo randori/matches. Some of my judo students cross train in BJJ and get stuck on trying for armbars and triangles from guard, which is not a bad thing (practice is good!), however, I point out that in a Judo match (they all compete regularly), they might want to consider sweeping/reversing to a pin if the sub attempt fails, and not get so hung up on subbing the guy.

    I've some questions,

    Would Ronda have had such an explosive top control sub game in mma if she had actually learnt bjj some 3 or 4 years ago, before entering mma?  Would Akiyama have his same successful to-top control that he has used in mma if he had cross-trained bjj heavily prior? If North American and other nations have had a decent style of top control from maybe being somewhat wrestling nations, are we now seeing a substitution of the 'wrestling' aspect of judo for the 'bjj' aspect?

    Did somewhat still young at the time, Judoka and 2000 silver Oly medalist Bu-Kyung Jung make the mistake of buying into bjj for his mma career rather than demo his judo concept?

    I look at BJJ as another tool for MMA. In order to be successful at mma you need to have something striking (boxing is the best for that, kickboxing second), takedowns and takedown defense with positional control on the floor (wrestling 1, judo 2 imo), and you need to have some skills when you end up on your back, and that's where BJJ is second to none. But like pointy said so nicely, its not like you forget all your other skills when you go into BJJ. Its just that people from BJJ transitioning to MMA are a little too comfortable on their backs and that costs them the fight in many occasions.

    Ronda has great judo, which means she can improve on striking and on working from worst case scenarios (at which BJJ is the best). That doesn't mean that she should start to rely on those skills, its just so she can be more comfortable at forcing her own game onto others.

    The jiu jitsu I teach to MMA fighters is usually all about, how to get up from the ground asap and how to scramble to a top position. Its not about chilling on the bottom looking for a submission.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:37 am

    Q mystic wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Dutch Budo wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

    the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

    if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

    for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.



    The guard is a good starting point to get your offensive going from, but it shouldn't be an end position. This is something Ive learnt the hard way. I liked to chill in guard a lot, eventually getting some points scored against me and losing the fight. If you like guard, that's a good thing, but use it to attack and go to a scoring position. Submissions from the guard can work, but at the higher levels they just wont fall for it anymore. How many triangles from the guard do you see at the black belt levels in BJJ? Backmount choke is the number one submission, followed by the armbar from top (mount or side mount).
    I often see what you describe when I "roll" with less experienced BJJ players in Judo or BJJ. They get me in their guard, and get this smug look on their faces like they have accomplished something major. Sometimes I just sit there with good posture and do nothing and stare at them. Then the complaints about how I"m not trying to pass start coming up....LOL.

     This happened to me a lot back before BJJ was as popular as it is now, as well. I tell my Judo students that the full guard is good to recover, but not someplace to just "hang out", especially in context of Judo randori/matches. Some of my judo students cross train in BJJ and get stuck on trying for armbars and triangles from guard, which is not a bad thing (practice is good!), however, I point out that in a Judo match (they all compete regularly), they might want to consider sweeping/reversing to a pin if the sub attempt fails, and not get so hung up on subbing the guy.

    I've some questions,

    Would Ronda have had such an explosive top control sub game in mma if she had actually learnt bjj some 3 or 4 years ago, before entering mma?  Would Akiyama have his same successful to-top control that he has used in mma if he had cross-trained bjj heavily prior? If North American and other nations have had a decent style of top control from maybe being somewhat wrestling nations, are we now seeing a substitution of the 'wrestling' aspect of judo for the 'bjj' aspect?

    Did somewhat still young at the time, Judoka and 2000 silver Oly medalist Bu-Kyung Jung make the mistake of buying into bjj for his mma career rather than demo his judo concept?

    I really don't know. Who says she hasn't learned some BJJ? Or at least "rolled" and trained with BJJists some or even a lot? She has to have done a lot of no-gi training of some sort. The video of Akiyama I watched looked to me like he was winning by capitalizing on the same stuff we focus on in Judo, namely, opportunistic attacks from fast transitions, plus his good athletics, aggression, quickness and overall toughness, and throwing skills...something judoka are often noted for.

    Ronda capitalizes on her strengths, which makes sense. Anyone would do the same. She did it in Judo, and is applying them to MMA now. If she had done BJJ for 3-4 years, I dont' know. I watch my students who do some BJJ, and they just get better at ne waza overall, and being primarily judoka (except for 1), they apply BJJ in the context of Judo rules, and it looks good and it works. If a person who has internalized to some degree judo (such as say a proper shodan should have done), then they will take what they can use of BJJ and apply it in the context of Judo randori/shiai. Or MMA for that matter, but that requires moe specialized training.

    Ronda is also a specialized case, because she was/is a high level female athlete in combative sports, which is fairly rare (outside of Judo, LOL), certainly in MMA. So she is many steps ahead automatically. In the world of male MMA, she would be good, no doubt, but unlikely as dominant (this if she were a "he").

    Wrestling provides a base for BJJ, kind of like Judo, but no submissions, and way different rules. So it's kind of another step removed.




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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by hedgehogey on Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:06 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    I really don't know. Who says she hasn't learned some BJJ? Or at least "rolled" and trained with BJJists some or even a lot?

    She has:
    http://youtu.be/y4hFyRx5bqM?t=26m58s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ix8Yw5zUEE
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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Dutch Budo on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:15 pm

    Eddie Bravo is not really representive for the bjj community though. Hes basically jumping on the Ronda train to get some attention. But when Ronda trained at Dynamix, she actually was dating Henri Akins, a Rickson Gracie Black belt. They surely exchanged some techniques there. Also of course she trained heaps in MMA and part of that training is wrestling/grappling without the gi. It is simply impossible to go from just judo training to MMA and be this successful without some actual fundamental training in MMA.


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    Q mystic

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Q mystic on Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:02 am

    Okay, let's put it this way. Each style has it's strengths and weaknesses. The strength of judo and wrestling; shouldn't they, clearly, be the ones heavily developed first?  The developing of td's and top control (via osaekomi or pin)....real strengths that are quite dominant. It sure seems to me they should be because from what I have seen, I don't believe that bjjers develop these so well later compared to judoka developing bjj skills later.

    Just asking and maybe I'm wrong but it seems, for instance, almost every nice td'er has always seemed to have had a judo or wrestling background and almost always as well has initially started in it. Even Jake Sheids. I believed for some time his nice single shot was a creation of sub-grappling but more recently found he did plenty of wrestling when younger. Roger Gracie? maybe, but I don't think he's  quite the td'er yet to classify as a legit td'er, and that's coming from a former world level bjjer who trains with quite the elite judo club. In fact, he might be the best case example for bjj going judo rather than judo to bjj.

    Too, we have seen bjj for mma evolve huge it seems in such a short time..maybe due to the pressure and opportunity. Again, not so much with td's and top, but both have gotten a little bit better as well as their ground game in general.

    Couldn't judo have evolved just as well? It has just as much in the canon as bjj. I think it could have, even better, and believe this is why we shouldn't necessarily let our elites that join mma just succumb to other 'styles' so much as let them kinda develop themselves. Still teach them, of course, but let their abilities also dictate.

    Take Akiyama for example. NOBODY in the mma world could have taught him to do the striking to judo tds he has done. He has done it from scratch himself, moreless; and if he had went to Jacksons from day one, he may very well have ended up looking more like Fitch, or maybe Kim. Kim is doing great, for sure, but I'm just saying that I believe judo has been in the process of being bred out of mma. I don't think it should be. I think people are listening too much to former mmaers when none were really judoka.  

    Hence my comment in MMA forum that the 1st thing a judoka who wants to do mma should be doing is lottsa ammy boxing. His brain will naturally develop strking in with his judo game. That's his new concept. That way, when he enters mma, he will have the confidence to play by his rules moreso and if he demos this ability, the coaches will allow much, much more room.


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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Q mystic on Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:13 am

    PointyShinyBurning wrote:

    Akiyama's top control has not been successful at the UFC level at all. He's been subbed, swept and/or easily escaped in every fight where he's thrown people.

    I disagree Pointy. He was exhausted when subbed and that means nothing of tech. Triangle? Like on Sonnen? I don't remember him being on bottom much either. Pretty good actually for an older fella carrying too much weight. I love his top game when he is still fresh.

    The irony with Leben was when Leben was asked how he was going to deal with Akis judo, he responded something like this if not exact...'I'll just blue-collar him. Take him down and pound him out.' lol


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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by hedgehogey on Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:33 am

    Q Mystic's favorite pin is called the Procrustean Bed.
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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Q mystic on Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:20 am

    hedgehogey wrote:Q Mystic's favorite pin is called the Procrustean Bed.

    My wife would disagree.=)

    ...yessss.... I will google your pro thingy....

    time is money to me HH.Evil or Very Mad

    edit. I got it. Nice.

    You did, however, use that in a judo/mma context with me(lol) in a case where I feel I have simply given my thoughts in a more questioning deal and have given what I think is a fine, and clear, alternative.=)

    I'm back in school now, HH. You shouldn't mess. I am getting better everyday at discussion and you have seemingly plateaued.Very Happy


    Last edited by Q mystic on Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    hedgehogey

    Posts : 103
    Join date : 2012-12-30

    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by hedgehogey on Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:59 pm

    If it doesn't work, he can quickly transition to the No True Scotsman.

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    Re: Heirarchy in groundwork

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:51 pm