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    Atemi waza

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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by nomoremondays on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:36 am

    Hanon wrote:
    nomoremondays wrote:Thanks. I think I saw some elements of this in Kawaishi's book. What I have never been able to see is how the atemi waza is tied together with the tachiwaza aspect. Basically the ideas of combos and such. I have seen some videos but am unaware of their veracity. Would you be able to shed some light on that?



    I am unsure that I understand your question? If you can expand it a little I will do my best to offer an answer.

    Sorry and thanks,

    Mike
    AAAAAGH! What happened to my post. It said "New messages have been added while typing your reply. Please review your message" and then it disappeared!!

    Evil or Very Mad

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Hanon on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:42 am

    nomoremondays wrote:AAAAAGH! What happened to my post. It said "New messages have been added while typing your reply. Please review your message" and then it disappeared!!

    Evil or Very Mad



    If you only new how many long detailed post I have written only to see them disappear...Grrrrr. I know where you are coming from...Twisted Evil

    Mike

    nomoremondays

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by nomoremondays on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:25 am

    Hanon wrote:
    If you only new how many long detailed post I have written only to see them disappear...Grrrrr. I know where you are coming from...Twisted Evil
    Mike

    Haha! Let me try some other questions. Maybe it was a sign from the judo gods that it was not a very good post
    and thus consigned to rubbish!

    I would think prefixing a throw with a strike changes the throw a bit. For example, if I hit uke's chin with my right palm heel before my osoto,
    I would not necessary have to use my right tsurite hand the way i would in a regular right osoto. Since kuzushi can be achieved with strikes,
    I would say that tsukuri also changes since hitting someone is at a 'longer' distance you dont need to enter the same way as you would
    regularly do. Do you agree with the idea of that?

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Hanon on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:07 am

    nomoremondays wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    If you only new how many long detailed post I have written only to see them disappear...Grrrrr. I know where you are coming from...Twisted Evil
    Mike

    Haha! Let me try some other questions. Maybe it was a sign from the judo gods that it was not a very good post
    and thus consigned to rubbish!

    I would think prefixing a throw with a strike changes the throw a bit. For example, if I hit uke's chin with my right palm heel before my osoto,
    I would not necessary have to use my right tsurite hand the way i would in a regular right osoto. Since kuzushi can be achieved with strikes,
    I would say that tsukuri also changes since hitting someone is at a 'longer' distance you dont need to enter the same way as you would
    regularly do. Do you agree with the idea of that?



    Yes.

    That was easy!bounce

    Mike

    PS, there can be more to it than that. But what you write is correct. I will explain as the thread develops8)

    Jimgo

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Jimgo on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:33 am

    Hi Mike, I am struck (pun intended) by the similarity between this waza and Goju karate which I trained in for a time. I don't mean to barrage you with questions but is there a connection between the two apart from being Japanese arts using the same terminology? Did one arise from the other? What influence did one have upon the development of the other?

    Thank you very much for sharing this essay. Kind regards, Jim

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Hanon on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:42 am

    Jimgo wrote:Hi Mike, I am struck (pun intended) by the similarity between this waza and Goju karate which I trained in for a time. I don't mean to barrage you with questions but is there a connection between the two apart from being Japanese arts using the same terminology? Did one arise from the other? What influence did one have upon the development of the other?

    Thank you very much for sharing this essay. Kind regards, Jim



    Just lost my reply...

    Try again. Hi Jim,

    Trust you to ask me a question I cant answer lol. I am afraid I have never practiced Goju ryu karatedo. I was raised in budo as a child and only in 1970 did I more or less train only judo for many years.

    It is my present understanding that the base of these arts originated in India and where taken to China then made there way to Okinawa? I don't know this as fact so treat this information with a pinch of salt.

    I am also guessing when I write that perhaps non of the karate ryu had an influence on atemi waza as to my understanding such waza where around long before Karatedo became well known or even codified as we know it today? The roots of atemi go back to ju jutsu. Before that I have no idea.

    Regarding the Koryu I am again greatly limited in my knowledge.

    I am sorry to be unable to answer your question Jim. I hope another poster will be able to?

    Very best wishes,

    Mike

    nomoremondays

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by nomoremondays on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:32 pm

    Hanon wrote:
    nomoremondays wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    If you only new how many long detailed post I have written only to see them disappear...Grrrrr. I know where you are coming from...Twisted Evil
    Mike

    Haha! Let me try some other questions. Maybe it was a sign from the judo gods that it was not a very good post
    and thus consigned to rubbish!

    I would think prefixing a throw with a strike changes the throw a bit. For example, if I hit uke's chin with my right palm heel before my osoto,
    I would not necessary have to use my right tsurite hand the way i would in a regular right osoto. Since kuzushi can be achieved with strikes,
    I would say that tsukuri also changes since hitting someone is at a 'longer' distance you dont need to enter the same way as you would
    regularly do. Do you agree with the idea of that?



    Yes.

    That was easy!bounce

    Mike

    PS, there can be more to it than that. But what you write is correct. I will explain as the thread develops8)

    Hah! That was a warm up. I was fairly sure I was right. Smile
    So the question really is how to modify each throw with each different type of strike / area of strike. I have experimented with this stuff on my own by they are just experiments. I would like to understand the 'judo' way of doing this and since it sounds like you had access to this knowledge close to the source you have some answers. But unfortunately, I suspect the written internet medium is not the best way to transfer this knowledge.

    cuivien

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by cuivien on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:15 pm

    In my years of Taekwondo I've been exposed to a number of self defense combinations which tend to follow a structure of: block an attack -> one or several punches/kicks -> throw or takedown (-> finishing blow).


    I'll give an example.
    From frontal bearhug locking both arms towards your body, drop CoG, step back with right foot and push/strike towards front of thighs forcing your opponent's hip backwards.
    From this, grab/underhook opponent's right arm with your left, step in again with right foot, rotate, and ô-goshi.


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    Hanon

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Hanon on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:58 am

    cuivien wrote:In my years of Taekwondo I've been exposed to a number of self defense combinations which tend to follow a structure of: block an attack -> one or several punches/kicks -> throw or takedown (-> finishing blow).


    I'll give an example.
    From frontal bearhug locking both arms towards your body, drop CoG, step back with right foot and push/strike towards front of thighs forcing your opponent's hip backwards.
    From this, grab/underhook opponent's right arm with your left, step in again with right foot, rotate, and ô-goshi.



    Hiya,

    I understand your points. Try to avoid the term "Block". One of the key components of judo is not to block but use the force against the person attacking. Nage no kata, seoinage being a classic example, if we block the waza its becomes a dead attack and reaction is then force. If we get out of the way and use the force of uke uke will, in reality, throw himself. 'All' tori has to do is make a shape for uke to sail over.

    If we make a block against a large attacker he may well hit his target. tai sabaki and continue his force until that attacking force is spent is one of the keys to 'maximum efficiency with minimum effort'.

    I understand what you mean and I am not being picky just trying to make you think about each and every word you use. Blocks are no no's for us.

    Kindest regards,

    Mike

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:05 am

    genetic judoka wrote:(hopefully) attached to this post is Hanon sensei's essay on atemi waza. let's see how this works out.

    Did I miss a list of references?

    Ben

    cuivien

    Posts : 118
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    Location : Norway

    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by cuivien on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:39 pm

    Hanon wrote:
    cuivien wrote:In my years of Taekwondo I've been exposed to a number of self defense combinations which tend to follow a structure of: block an attack -> one or several punches/kicks -> throw or takedown (-> finishing blow).


    I'll give an example.
    From frontal bearhug locking both arms towards your body, drop CoG, step back with right foot and push/strike towards front of thighs forcing your opponent's hip backwards.
    From this, grab/underhook opponent's right arm with your left, step in again with right foot, rotate, and ô-goshi.
    Hiya,

    I understand your points. Try to avoid the term "Block". One of the key components of judo is not to block but use the force against the person attacking. Nage no kata, seoinage being a classic example, if we block the waza its becomes a dead attack and reaction is then force. If we get out of the way and use the force of uke uke will, in reality, throw himself. 'All' tori has to do is make a shape for uke to sail over.

    If we make a block against a large attacker he may well hit his target. tai sabaki and continue his force until that attacking force is spent is one of the keys to 'maximum efficiency with minimum effort'.

    I understand what you mean and I am not being picky just trying to make you think about each and every word you use. Blocks are no no's for us.

    Kindest regards,

    Mike
    Hi Hanon.
    I understand what you are saying. The above was primarily as an example of how the TKD "way" of self defense I've been exposed to works, and how it tries to incorporate both atemi and nage-waza...
    And when doing the seoi-nage attack from NNK, actually upwards blocks in TKD are with an angle to the arm, so that they redirect the force instead of meeting it head-on :-)

    But allow me, if you will, a question based on your earlier statement:
    On a point of generality maybe a word or two on atemi and its past part in kodokan judo?

    Two basic notions:

    One; An atemi as a diversionary action as a prelude to a throw then further atemi.
    Two; An atemi that ends the attack with a decisive action, either killing or at least rendering the attacker unable to continue with any further attack
    in option one, I'm struggling a bit to see just how the first atemi is to be timed and set up. are you primarily thinking super quick evasion/tai-sabaki to get within range, by means of... say stepping on the outside of an attacking punch or kick?


    regards,
    Øyvind


    Last edited by cuivien on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarification)

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:22 am

    cuivien wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    cuivien wrote:In my years of Taekwondo I've been exposed to a number of self defense combinations which tend to follow a structure of: block an attack -> one or several punches/kicks -> throw or takedown (-> finishing blow).


    I'll give an example.
    From frontal bearhug locking both arms towards your body, drop CoG, step back with right foot and push/strike towards front of thighs forcing your opponent's hip backwards.
    From this, grab/underhook opponent's right arm with your left, step in again with right foot, rotate, and ô-goshi.
    Hiya,

    I understand your points. Try to avoid the term "Block". One of the key components of judo is not to block but use the force against the person attacking. Nage no kata, seoinage being a classic example, if we block the waza its becomes a dead attack and reaction is then force. If we get out of the way and use the force of uke uke will, in reality, throw himself. 'All' tori has to do is make a shape for uke to sail over.

    If we make a block against a large attacker he may well hit his target. tai sabaki and continue his force until that attacking force is spent is one of the keys to 'maximum efficiency with minimum effort'.

    I understand what you mean and I am not being picky just trying to make you think about each and every word you use. Blocks are no no's for us.

    Kindest regards,

    Mike
    Hi Hanon.
    I understand what you are saying. The above was primarily as an example of how the TKD "way" of self defense I've been exposed to works, and how it tries to incorporate both atemi and nage-waza...
    And when doing the seoi-nage attack from NNK, actually upwards blocks in TKD are with an angle to the arm, so that they redirect the force instead of meeting it head-on :-)

    But allow me, if you will, a question based on your earlier statement:
    On a point of generality maybe a word or two on atemi and its past part in kodokan judo?

    Two basic notions:

    One; An atemi as a diversionary action as a prelude to a throw then further atemi.
    Two; An atemi that ends the attack with a decisive action, either killing or at least rendering the attacker unable to continue with any further attack
    in option one, I'm struggling a bit to see just how the first atemi is to be timed and set up. are you primarily thinking super quick evasion/tai-sabaki to get within range, by means of... say stepping on the outside of an attacking punch or kick?


    regards,
    Øyvind

    Hiya,

    Thanks for the feedback.

    This is complex. You see there is atemi of old when laws and cultural behaviours where very different to todays. I need to explain. I think it of vital importance when learning, for example, the kime no kata, to understand that no one today would walk around with either a tanto not a katana, no one will walk up to you and hold both your wrists.

    I am unsure if the 'exact' content was ever truly realistic? The idea behind learning such kata is not to copy the technique but master the principle behind it. A classic obvious example opf this in kime no kata would be tai sabaki, not to be in front of a blade, to step aside and avoid the force coming your way by an attacker. Timing, if tori begins to defend too quickly then this will open a window for uke to redirect his attack. Psychologically being used to having ones personal space invaded and being used to a physical contact etc.

    In atemi attacks and defences There are few rules. few right or wrongs.

    In the first broad type as under debate this has numerous options. Talking, the power of speech is a form of atemi. Non verbal communication is also atemi, knowing when to look passive or be assertive is also atemi. The primary principle behind a type one attack is to confuse and divert the attention of an attacker away from what you will do as a second action. I cannot tell you how or what first action to make not what the follow up could be as all these scenarios are so open to the action of the attacker. I am not avoiding giving you a specific answer, I sincerely believe there isn't one.

    You actually give an example, this is one of millions. Think more of the principle behind the objective then practice with a partner asking him to make a variety of approaches toward you with a variety of holds or attacks. practice slowly to start with then begin to build a feel for the basic principle of action-reaction, or just take the initiative and attack. sen, sen no sen etc.

    If we only had a tatami....two examples would explain the principle better than all my postulating here.

    Keep the questions coming, bash away at this subject and lets see what we can tease out of this debate. Its the only way of training using this media.

    Best wishes,

    Mike

    Hanon

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:59 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:(hopefully) attached to this post is Hanon sensei's essay on atemi waza. let's see how this works out.

    Did I miss a list of references?

    Ben



    Hi Ben,



    How are things with you?

    The atemi waza article was an essay written by a pupil of mine who was going for yo dan exam. References where not required for such an essay.

    Further, references may prove difficult as much of the content is direct knowledge from my sensei who where both taught budo at the pre WW11 DNBK, I fear a lot in the essay is not yet in the written form? Perhaps this could be a start to such a reference?

    I posted my pupils essay here to start debate and that it is doing as you can see. Thanks for partaking, its nice to hear from you again.

    Very best wishes,

    Mike

    JudoStu

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by JudoStu on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:04 am

    I recognise a lot of techniques used from my Wado Ryu Karate days. Are they applied any differently in Judo?


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    Hanon

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:11 am

    JudoStu wrote:I recognise a lot of techniques used from my Wado Ryu Karate days. Are they applied any differently in Judo?

    Hi,

    Again I can't answer that as I am not proficient in Wado ryu karatedo.

    Mike

    cuivien

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by cuivien on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:32 am

    Hanon wrote:Hiya,


    Thanks for the feedback.

    This is complex. You see there is atemi of old when laws and cultural behaviours where very different to todays. I need to explain. I think it of vital importance when learning, for example, the kime no kata, to understand that no one today would walk around with either a tanto not a katana, no one will walk up to you and hold both your wrists.

    I am unsure if the 'exact' content was ever truly realistic? The idea behind learning such kata is not to copy the technique but master the principle behind it. A classic obvious example opf this in kime no kata would be tai sabaki, not to be in front of a blade, to step aside and avoid the force coming your way by an attacker. Timing, if tori begins to defend too quickly then this will open a window for uke to redirect his attack. Psychologically being used to having ones personal space invaded and being used to a physical contact etc.

    In atemi attacks and defences There are few rules. few right or wrongs.

    In the first broad type as under debate this has numerous options. Talking, the power of speech is a form of atemi. Non verbal communication is also atemi, knowing when to look passive or be assertive is also atemi. The primary principle behind a type one attack is to confuse and divert the attention of an attacker away from what you will do as a second action. I cannot tell you how or what first action to make not what the follow up could be as all these scenarios are so open to the action of the attacker. I am not avoiding giving you a specific answer, I sincerely believe there isn't one.

    You actually give an example, this is one of millions. Think more of the principle behind the objective then practice with a partner asking him to make a variety of approaches toward you with a variety of holds or attacks. practice slowly to start with then begin to build a feel for the basic principle of action-reaction, or just take the initiative and attack. sen, sen no sen etc.

    If we only had a tatami....two examples would explain the principle better than all my postulating here.

    Keep the questions coming, bash away at this subject and lets see what we can tease out of this debate. Its the only way of training using this media.

    Best wishes,

    Mike
    Actually, I think we're on the same page here.
    When I have time (hopefully next Tuesday), I'll try to capture a vid showing some self defense and various "levels" of .


    When it comes to the precise content of, for instance, kime-no-kata, I very much agree with your comment that it is more about the principle than copying the techniques.
    I remember one of the several discussions on JF about teaching of judo (particularly kata) progressing in the manner of shu-ha-ri (守、壊、離), I guess we could argue that understanding of atemis place in judo also takes place in similar fashion...?
    - shu: blindly copying the techniques
    - ha: developing variations, starting to figure out the underlying principles behind the techniques
    - ri: being able to freely employ the principles in a live context
    thoughts?


    - Øyvind


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    ThePieman

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by ThePieman on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:15 am

    Hanon wrote:
    In the first broad type as under debate this has numerous options. Talking, the power of speech is a form of atemi. Non verbal communication is also atemi, knowing when to look passive or be assertive is also atemi. The primary principle behind a type one attack is to confuse and divert the attention of an attacker away from what you will do as a second action. I cannot tell you how or what first action to make not what the follow up could be as all these scenarios are so open to the action of the attacker. I am not avoiding giving you a specific answer, I sincerely believe there isn't one.


    So, maybe we could drill this with your partner having a pre determined scenario in mind?

    For instance your partner/attacker could create an imaginary situation where he has seen you leave a cash point, he has seen and knows that your card is in your back pocket, he has a knife and is willing to use it in a non lethal way, he will approach you from behind.

    Each time this could be slightly altered, maybe your attacker is not actually willing to use the knife at all? maybe on a few occasions you could talk him down with no violence at all? One time he has a gun, another time its a fake.

    There would be endless scenarios as there would be in an actual situation, would this be a plausible way to train atemi?

    Hanon

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    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:15 am

    Indeed.

    The principle can only be understood by physically practicing different scenarios as you mention. First work on the shizenhontai with the migi and hidari. Learn how to punch, use the elbow, how to form a fist, make a spear hand etc. then start to learn the points of attack on an uke.

    It can be a problem learning the vital attack points on a partner as some of them will kill if attacked even with little force. Supervision is required and no misuse of the ego. Some of this stuff is dangerous lol

    Today I guess a pair could purchase some protective equipment and make light sparring. NOTICE I said light .

    Mike

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:04 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:(hopefully) attached to this post is Hanon sensei's essay on atemi waza. let's see how this works out.

    Did I miss a list of references?

    Ben

    Things are going well. We had a great training session last night, I'm still all aglow about it.

    Thank you for giving the primary source for the essay. I was not "grading it" in asking for references, just trying to figure out where all the knowledge of atemi in Judo comes from, as detailed written sources (out side of Japanese?) are not common if they exist at all.

    Regards,

    Ben



    Hi Ben,



    How are things with you?

    The atemi waza article was an essay written by a pupil of mine who was going for yo dan exam. References where not required for such an essay.

    Further, references may prove difficult as much of the content is direct knowledge from my sensei who where both taught budo at the pre WW11 DNBK, I fear a lot in the essay is not yet in the written form? Perhaps this could be a start to such a reference?

    I posted my pupils essay here to start debate and that it is doing as you can see. Thanks for partaking, its nice to hear from you again.

    Very best wishes,

    Mike

    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:07 am

    JudoStu wrote:I recognise a lot of techniques used from my Wado Ryu Karate days. Are they applied any differently in Judo?

    Wasn't the founder of Wado Ryu a practitioner (perhaps menkyo) in a koryu ju jutsu? I'm thinking some form of Yoshin Ryu.

    Ok, this from Wiki, but it jibes with other sources. Ōtsuka was a licensed Shindō Yōshin-ryū practitioner and a
    student of Yōshin-ryū when he first met the Okinawan karate
    master Gichin Funakoshi."

    So no wonder, eh?

    JudoStu

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by JudoStu on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:05 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:I recognise a lot of techniques used from my Wado Ryu Karate days. Are they applied any differently in Judo?

    Wasn't the founder of Wado Ryu a practitioner (perhaps menkyo) in a koryu ju jutsu? I'm thinking some form of Yoshin Ryu.

    Ok, this from Wiki, but it jibes with other sources. Ōtsuka was a licensed Shindō Yōshin-ryū practitioner and a
    student of Yōshin-ryū when he first met the Okinawan karate
    master Gichin Funakoshi."

    So no wonder, eh?



    Indeed.

    Yoshin Ryu is also the name of one of the Judo clubs I train at


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    tom herold

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    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by tom herold on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:37 pm

    I do not want to be meddlesome ...
    But maybe I can say something about the atemi-waza?

    We do it in our training in everyday practise.
    We do it in randori with full speed and full contact.

    From my teacher I have got the so called "energy work".
    It is nothing that would be "esoteric" or nonsens.

    If we want to be successfully with atemi-waza, we have to do it perfectly, even in case of emergency.
    Or especially then.

    So we have to learn and to understand not only the bio-mechanical processes.
    We have to learn how to make it work.
    And therefore we need something that is in the chinese martial arts called "pictures".

    These pictures are images, that allow us to use our cerebral motor cortex at its best.
    No esoteric nonsens.
    It is checkable on the mat, "hands on" in randori / sparring.

    I find a pity that this knowledge has got lost extensively.


    Oh ... I would like to add in a great hurry that I did not want to be smart-alecky.
    I only do have a lot of experiences with such kind of "energy work" and I am unfortunately very experienced in real fights.

    Hanon

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    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Hanon on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:18 pm

    tom herold wrote:I do not want to be meddlesome ...
    But maybe I can say something about the atemi-waza?

    We do it in our training in everyday practise.
    We do it in randori with full speed and full contact.

    From my teacher I have got the so called "energy work".
    It is nothing that would be "esoteric" or nonsens.

    If we want to be successfully with atemi-waza, we have to do it perfectly, even in case of emergency.
    Or especially then.

    So we have to learn and to understand not only the bio-mechanical processes.
    We have to learn how to make it work.
    And therefore we need something that is in the chinese martial arts called "pictures".

    These pictures are images, that allow us to use our cerebral motor cortex at its best.
    No esoteric nonsens.
    It is checkable on the mat, "hands on" in randori / sparring.

    I find a pity that this knowledge has got lost extensively.


    Oh ... I would like to add in a great hurry that I did not want to be smart-alecky.
    I only do have a lot of experiences with such kind of "energy work" and I am unfortunately very experienced in real fights.



    Hi Tom,

    A very warm welcome to this forum and this thread. I for one would appreciate any input you are able to offer. I was particularly interested in your sentence.."We do it in our training in everyday practise. We do it in randori with full speed and full contact".
    This sounds a challenge, can you elaborate on how you practice in randori?

    Again it is great to have you post here, many thanks for your enthusiastic post.

    My best wishes to your sensei, I was shocked to learn of his accident but relieved to learn he is back on the tatami where he belongs.

    Kind regards,

    Mike


    Last edited by Hanon on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:20 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

    tom herold

    Posts : 56
    Join date : 2013-01-23

    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by tom herold on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:55 am

    Dear Hanon Sensei
    thanks a lot for your nice words.
    Very Happy

    You wrote:
    I for one would appreciate any input you are able to offer. I was particularly interested in your sentence.."We do it in our training in everyday practise. We do it in randori with full speed and full contact".
    This sounds a challenge, can you elaborate on how you practice in randori?

    All right, maybe I can explain that ...
    But please remember my English is horrible and surely I will make a lot of mistakes in spelling and grammar.
    (Shame on me)

    We use atemi in randori every day.
    We meet on the mat every evening except saturday.

    When my students earn the blue belt (at age of 16 or 17) the atemi-waza are teached to them.
    And from that point on we have randori as usual in using throws, randori in ne-waza ... and randori using only atemi-waza or mixed up.

    My students wear gumshield an ... ääähm ... "deep protection".
    That's all.
    We have then different levels of "aggression".
    The first one is like playing chess.
    But there are no limits to go harder and harder.

    Yes, we have injuries.
    Blue-hit eyes, pains after heavy body hits, bruises, compressions.
    But honestly - nevertheless, all this can also happen if one finishes normal randori.
    So we decided to go on.

    One often hears, that is such a thing too dangerous.
    It is too dangerous for the knees, the teeth, the eyes...

    But this is not right as our experience has pointed.
    Injuries also appear with the supposedly harmless throwing randori or in the ground combat.

    Yes, it is uncomfortable to get knocked out by a punch to the body, to the liver ...
    It hurts to get knocked out by a punch to the chin.

    But it is merely the same like "knocked out" by a jointlock or a good, correct stranglehold.
    It is nearly the same like to be thrown by a "old fashioned" throw.

    That's why we use atemi-waza in our normal randori sessions in tachi-waza and ne-waza too.
    My students began to use atemi-waza 10 years ago.
    We had since then no really serious, heavy injuries.

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Hanon on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:08 am

    Dear Tom,

    Your English is fine and I thank you for writing using English as my German is.....well it isn't! lol PLEASE do not mention this again, it is an honour for us to read your posts in English and appreciate the hard work you place into your translations.

    I need a little more time to digest your post as you raise numerous issues regarding the subject of atemi and how they can be practiced. I think this will prove a very valuable thread. Your contribution is very much appreciated.

    Regards,

    Mike

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    Re: Atemi waza

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