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    The Kodokan and the Gokyo

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    gester

    Posts : 40
    Join date : 2013-02-07

    The Kodokan and the Gokyo

    Post by gester on Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:24 am

    Does the Kodokan teach according to the Gokyo? I checked to KDK site and it doesn't show which throws are taught or what order they teach them.


    Regards,
    GS


    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
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    Age : 856
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: The Kodokan and the Gokyo

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:27 am

    gester wrote:Does the Kodokan teach according to the Gokyo? I checked to KDK site and it doesn't show which throws are taught or what order they teach them.


    Regards,
    GS


    To whom ? Do you mean in the beginners' course ? Or the women's course ?

    Have you been to the Kôdôkan ? I could not derive that with certainty from your post. I am not sure if you are aware how it functions. It's not a dôjô where twice or three times a week everyone comes together for a central workout under an instructor like in your typical Western club.

    The 4 tatami of the grand dôjô on the 7th floor are typically split up or several activities. One mat may have beginners class, one may have women's class, while brown/black belts usually are active on one of the two other tatami, where it's really "open dôjô activity". One of the mats usually is used for randori, the other for kata. When one of the mats is not taken up by women's class or beginners, the third mat may be used by jûdôka for uchi-komi or similar all on their own initiatives. So basically, only the women's class and beginner's class are guided. For the rest there are instructor's present usually a couple of 4th or 5th dan-younger instructors, and at least one senior instructor 7th or 8th dan. Occasionally one of the "big guns" like Daigo or Ôsawa comes in, sits on a bench and watches, and two evenings per week, Daigo supervises and advanced kata class typically attended by 6th-8th dan jûdôka.

    Whether the beginners' or women's class teaches according to the gokyô ...

    Well, I have never step by step written down each sequence they go through, as I have never been part of the group and when I am there I am usually devoting my attention to other things, but I would say that the answer is "yes and no". In my perception, it is 'yes' in a sense that they start with easier throws that are appropriate for the group and essential to master towards black belt. In my perception the answer is 'no' in the sense that I don't think that if today they covered throw #3 of the 1st group of the gokyô that this will then mathematically imply that the next throw they will cover will be #4. It might well be throw #5 or #6, I would imagine.

    I am not sure if this is really any different from what is done in the West. With my regular students so far I have completed the the first two kyô this year and am half way through the third kyô. But similarly, it isn't so stringent as to mean that the exact order is followed. For example, if in a kyô there are sutemi and non-sutemi, I tend to first complete the non-sutemi before moving to the sutemi. Is it always like that ? No, it depends on the technical level of the group. Some of the students, particularly those around puberty have insufficient coordination, some elderly judoka who have returned after 15 years of inactivity are still and lost some of their touch, and therefore, choices of throws are given in by safety concerns. That is why I tend to first cover the non-sutemi within a group. Were my students to consists of only elite, well-trained black belts, then obviously such restriction might not be essential from a pedagogical point of view.


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    Q mystic

    Posts : 319
    Join date : 2013-02-10

    Re: The Kodokan and the Gokyo

    Post by Q mystic on Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:47 am

    +1 military, or even school for that matter.

    Training the 'athletic' fella seperately seems like it can be just as much a detriment to him, as well.


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    gester

    Posts : 40
    Join date : 2013-02-07

    Re: The Kodokan and the Gokyo

    Post by gester on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:13 am

    Thank you Cichorei Kano for your reply.

    I have not trained at the Kodokan and have wondered how beginners are trained. Your answer was very informative on training sessions for all levels. Thank you.

    Is the promotion criteria generally along Gokyo lines? ie The first group gets you gokyu, the second group gets you yonkyu, etc?

    I suppose that going down the list of the 67 throws, in order, isn't how judo is taught since on lists I've seen Ippon Seionage is the last throw. Laughing


    GS






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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: The Kodokan and the Gokyo

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:49 am

    gester wrote:Thank you Cichorei Kano for your reply.

    I have not trained at the Kodokan and have wondered how beginners are trained. Your answer was very informative on training sessions for all levels. Thank you.

    Is the promotion criteria generally along Gokyo lines? ie The first group gets you gokyu, the second group gets you yonkyu, etc?

    I suppose that going down the list of the 67 throws, in order, isn't how judo is taught since on lists I've seen Ippon Seionage is the last throw. Laughing


    GS

    No, no, no. I cannot give you all of the details as I am not someone who has formally been a student there who graded through the kyû ranks. The information is available in Japanese on their website and there are also booklets in Japanese with such information. Maybe someone on this forum who has actually graded there or who is there on a regular basis like NBK can give you some details.

    In any case, you seem to link kyô and kyû. Since in many countries a full display of the first two kyô of the gokyô is required only for shodan, it is not very realistic that for each kyû grade you would be required 8 more throws, and would be required to know all 40 by 1st kyû. I don't really see the average brown belt pull off sumi-otoshi and other notoriously difficult techniques which most black belts can't even perform. Knowledge for shodan is a lot less certainly in Japan where such a rank is really considered a competition rank.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Jonesy

    Posts : 984
    Join date : 2013-01-02

    Re: The Kodokan and the Gokyo

    Post by Jonesy on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:54 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    gester wrote:Thank you Cichorei Kano for your reply.

    I have not trained at the Kodokan and have wondered how beginners are trained. Your answer was very informative on training sessions for all levels. Thank you.

    Is the promotion criteria generally along Gokyo lines? ie The first group gets you gokyu, the second group gets you yonkyu, etc?

    I suppose that going down the list of the 67 throws, in order, isn't how judo is taught since on lists I've seen Ippon Seionage is the last throw. Laughing


    GS

    No, no, no. I cannot give you all of the details as I am not someone who has formally been a student there who graded through the kyû ranks. The information is available in Japanese on their website and there are also booklets in Japanese with such information. Maybe someone on this forum who has actually graded there or who is there on a regular basis like NBK can give you some details.

    In any case, you seem to link kyô and kyû. Since in many countries a full display of the first two kyô of the gokyô is required only for shodan, it is not very realistic that for each kyû grade you would be required 8 more throws, and would be required to know all 40 by 1st kyû. I don't really see the average brown belt pull off sumi-otoshi and other notoriously difficult techniques which most black belts can't even perform. Knowledge for shodan is a lot less certainly in Japan where such a rank is really considered a competition rank.
    From what I recall from my time in Japan there are no requirements for adult students to demonstrate any "theory" i.e. individual techniques, combinations, counters etc for kyu grade ranks. I remember novices being made to show breakfalls before the kyu grade shiai and that is all. Most folks after their first shiai as a non-grade holder went to 1 kyu - still wearing a white belt. All that was required for shodan was a part of the nage-no-kata.

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