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    Uchi-mata - Hidehiko Yoshida

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    Jonesy

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    Uchi-mata - Hidehiko Yoshida

    Post by Jonesy on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:47 am


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    Re: Uchi-mata - Hidehiko Yoshida

    Post by Guest on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:26 pm

    I have seen the Yoshida uchi mata instructional before. Please understand in advance that what I'm about to say is not a criticism of Yoshida. That said, I've always found it curious that in his instruction he says to pull high with his hikite (which I do personally with uchi mata) at 1:44 but when he actually demonstrates the full throw at around the 3:18 mark there is no high pull at all.

    Also, the uchi mata on Jason Morris to win the gold is probably the finest uchi mata I have ever seen in a contest. Even more impressive than Inoue.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Uchi-mata - Hidehiko Yoshida

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:08 am

    Dave R. wrote:I have seen the Yoshida uchi mata instructional before. Please understand in advance that what I'm about to say is not a criticism of Yoshida. That said, I've always found it curious that in his instruction he says to pull high with his hikite (which I do personally with uchi mata) at 1:44 but when he actually demonstrates the full throw at around the 3:18 mark there is no high pull at all.

    Also, the uchi mata on Jason Morris to win the gold is probably the finest uchi mata I have ever seen in a contest. Even more impressive than Inoue.

    It's not uncommon to see experts/champions execute throws differently when demonstrating versus in shiai or randori against fully resisting opponents.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Uchi-mata - Hidehiko Yoshida

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:45 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Dave R. wrote:I have seen the Yoshida uchi mata instructional before. Please understand in advance that what I'm about to say is not a criticism of Yoshida. That said, I've always found it curious that in his instruction he says to pull high with his hikite (which I do personally with uchi mata) at 1:44 but when he actually demonstrates the full throw at around the 3:18 mark there is no high pull at all.

    Also, the uchi mata on Jason Morris to win the gold is probably the finest uchi mata I have ever seen in a contest. Even more impressive than Inoue.

    It's not uncommon to see experts/champions execute throws differently when demonstrating versus in shiai or randori against fully resisting opponents.
    "that's how I made it work in that match, but this is how it's supposed to be done..."


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    Re: Uchi-mata - Hidehiko Yoshida

    Post by Guest on Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:02 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Dave R. wrote:I have seen the Yoshida uchi mata instructional before. Please understand in advance that what I'm about to say is not a criticism of Yoshida. That said, I've always found it curious that in his instruction he says to pull high with his hikite (which I do personally with uchi mata) at 1:44 but when he actually demonstrates the full throw at around the 3:18 mark there is no high pull at all.

    Also, the uchi mata on Jason Morris to win the gold is probably the finest uchi mata I have ever seen in a contest. Even more impressive than Inoue.

    It's not uncommon to see experts/champions execute throws differently when demonstrating versus in shiai or randori against fully resisting opponents.

    I understand that. I was talking specifically about the demonstration video where there wasn't any resistance. I think most peoples throws look different in randori or shiai than they would if demonstrating the throw. I know that is true for me.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Uchi-mata - Hidehiko Yoshida

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:23 am

    Dave R. wrote:I have seen the Yoshida uchi mata instructional before. Please understand in advance that what I'm about to say is not a criticism of Yoshida. That said, I've always found it curious that in his instruction he says to pull high with his hikite (which I do personally with uchi mata) at 1:44 but when he actually demonstrates the full throw at around the 3:18 mark there is no high pull at all.

    When one gives instruction, you have to break it down to idiot's level, and even then half your class will do something different making you wonder if they are blind, retarded, or both. This may sound condescending, but it isn't meant that way. In fact it comes it becomes even more so when you deal with children, en from a neuromotor and developmental psychological point of view there is hard evidence to support some of these problems. Until certain age children are near-sighted, have little eye-tracking ability, issues with processing the information, let alone replicating the movement.

    When one teaches a throw, one has to realize one is not even teaching this throw to 'jûdôka' but to people most of whom are clueless about tai-sabaki, use of the hara, have little coordination, do not fully grasp the debana/tsukuri/kuzushi/kake interaction, control, proportionality, etc.

    How do you do that ? You have to simplify thing. In reality we know that no matter what, they are not going to be able to do what we show, but maybe a couple of them get it, and will practice this for many months of years and then might get.

    So, you have to give your people crutches, a limited number of it, so they can still process it. For that reason you need to say things like how the feet need to make a triangle. Do your feet need to make a triangle ? Of course they don't, they can be wherever, BUT ... that means that COORDINATION will have to compensate for that, and the continuous sensor interaction with the effectors in tori have to adjust. Way too much, and even more than "too much", infact ... simply beyond reach for most people in your class. So ... tell students something they can easily remember so that the teaching exercise rather is one of ... "PUT YOUR FEET IN A TRIANGLE AND THEN ..."

    At least this guarantees that we now well all be in the same position at step 2, at least in theory, because no matter what there will be perhaps not half, but still 1/3rd or 1/4th of your class who cannot do what you actually said and put those feet in a triangle. It's like putting a child on a bike. What is hard about that ? Do you ever have to think what to do on a bike. Is it necessary to start pedaling with your left foot, or a bunch other specific things ? No of course not, but you have to break it down, and give specific scenarios to that child, things that are within his reach, things it can actually do.

    The tsurite arm in the first video really is simply a matter of two things, namely to create an opening to turn into, and to maintain control of the opponent. But he keeps it simple by bringing it down to dummies level and saying "this is what should ..." no questions asked. This approach is understandable even for the beginning judoka who may not even know what tsukuri and kuzushi means. So you say ... "you should ..."

    Then there are the reality conditions of when one is demonstrating. One is himself an Olympic champions, which means that one outclasses 99.9% of the judo population at least in athleticism. That also means that in comparison there is not match between you and the uke. Look at so many technical videos with other champions, like Adams, etc. Who is the uke ? The uke is usually a nobody, a person, often a weight class lighter, much less contest accomplishments, and many are even "professional uke". If you visit clinics you will recognize them, one or two guys who are ALWAYS the uke for a guest.

    In a contest like the Olympics, the situation is a bit different. Every opponent is now part of a small proportion of the world population of the most successful judoka. No judoka at that level would allow his arm to be pulled up that high, and of course that is not even necessary either. Why is not necessary ? Because Yoshida obviously is a top-judoka who can look for and create a minimal opening that the opponent won't even feel, and still find that sufficient and turn in for ippon.

    But what really is going on, is that when he actually throws it is no longer judo narrowed down to dummies level. That means, he does something to get a reaction and senses and analyzes the magnitude, nature, origin, and direction of that reaction and then presents a coordinated reaction that has nothing to do anymore with placing your feet in a triangle or pulling your hand up. He does something he cannot possibly explain to a "group of dummies" (to say so, to indicate the enormous difference in skill), something that is the simultaneous coordinated result of things that the average group can't even do one of in a static situation.

    What I just described is the huge different between his initial explanation at the start of video one and what he is doing in video 2. But some of that is already present just in video 1, between the initial explanation and his later demonstration on which you picked up.

    Even when analyzing the competitive video, there is much to say about, not just about the uchi-mata, but about so many things. I know his adversary in his first match very well as I trained with him often and did randori with him a lot. I have never known to react like this or use clumsy body positions like that. Also, he was a technically very accomplished jûdôka and I know he beat Koga once. What is going on ? I can tell you. What is going on is that he never realized his full potential despite his successes such as winning a European title and a silver medal on the worlds, the reason being that he suffered from very considerable psychological issues. Having to fight a Japanese, certainly in those days, and in a major contest always meant some level of intimidation in the sense that you simply knew that they were technically outstanding. But those are the rules of the game. You can be the best judoka ever, but if you crumble due to pressure, and your opponent is technically not up to your level (obviously not implying that this is the case here), then so be it since psychological strength is part of the overall picture. Sadly, not everyone has the rock-hard self-confidence of a Geesink, and in this case. The press often plays a role in creating this pressure too, but again, that's reality, and some jûdôka can handle it and some can't.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Uchi-mata - Hidehiko Yoshida

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:59 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Dave R. wrote:I have seen the Yoshida uchi mata instructional before. Please understand in advance that what I'm about to say is not a criticism of Yoshida. That said, I've always found it curious that in his instruction he says to pull high with his hikite (which I do personally with uchi mata) at 1:44 but when he actually demonstrates the full throw at around the 3:18 mark there is no high pull at all.

    When one gives instruction, you have to break it down to idiot's level, and even then half your class will do something different making you wonder if they are blind, retarded, or both. This may sound condescending, but it isn't meant that way. In fact it comes it becomes even more so when you deal with children, en from a neuromotor and developmental psychological point of view there is hard evidence to support some of these problems. Until certain age children are near-sighted, have little eye-tracking ability, issues with processing the information, let alone replicating the movement.

    When one teaches a throw, one has to realize one is not even teaching this throw to 'jûdôka' but to people most of whom are clueless about tai-sabaki, use of the hara, have little coordination, do not fully grasp the debana/tsukuri/kuzushi/kake interaction, control, proportionality, etc.

    How do you do that ? You have to simplify thing. In reality we know that no matter what, they are not going to be able to do what we show, but maybe a couple of them get it, and will practice this for many months of years and then might get.

    So, you have to give your people crutches, a limited number of it, so they can still process it. For that reason you need to say things like how the feet need to make a triangle. Do your feet need to make a triangle ? Of course they don't, they can be wherever, BUT ... that means that COORDINATION will have to compensate for that, and the continuous sensor interaction with the effectors in tori have to adjust. Way too much, and even more than "too much", infact ... simply beyond reach for most people in your class. So ... tell students something they can easily remember so that the teaching exercise rather is one of ... "PUT YOUR FEET IN A TRIANGLE AND THEN ..."

    At least this guarantees that we now well all be in the same position at step 2, at least in theory, because no matter what there will be perhaps not half, but still 1/3rd or 1/4th of your class who cannot do what you actually said and put those feet in a triangle. It's like putting a child on a bike. What is hard about that ? Do you ever have to think what to do on a bike. Is it necessary to start pedaling with your left foot, or a bunch other specific things ? No of course not, but you have to break it down, and give specific scenarios to that child, things that are within his reach, things it can actually do.

    The tsurite arm in the first video really is simply a matter of two things, namely to create an opening to turn into, and to maintain control of the opponent. But he keeps it simple by bringing it down to dummies level and saying "this is what should ..." no questions asked. This approach is understandable even for the beginning judoka who may not even know what tsukuri and kuzushi means. So you say ... "you should ..."

    Then there are the reality conditions of when one is demonstrating. One is himself an Olympic champions, which means that one outclasses 99.9% of the judo population at least in athleticism. That also means that in comparison there is not match between you and the uke. Look at so many technical videos with other champions, like Adams, etc. Who is the uke ? The uke is usually a nobody, a person, often a weight class lighter, much less contest accomplishments, and many are even "professional uke". If you visit clinics you will recognize them, one or two guys who are ALWAYS the uke for a guest.

    In a contest like the Olympics, the situation is a bit different. Every opponent is now part of a small proportion of the world population of the most successful judoka. No judoka at that level would allow his arm to be pulled up that high, and of course that is not even necessary either. Why is not necessary ? Because Yoshida obviously is a top-judoka who can look for and create a minimal opening that the opponent won't even feel, and still find that sufficient and turn in for ippon.

    But what really is going on, is that when he actually throws it is no longer judo narrowed down to dummies level. That means, he does something to get a reaction and senses and analyzes the magnitude, nature, origin, and direction of that reaction and then presents a coordinated reaction that has nothing to do anymore with placing your feet in a triangle or pulling your hand up. He does something he cannot possibly explain to a "group of dummies" (to say so, to indicate the enormous difference in skill), something that is the simultaneous coordinated result of things that the average group can't even do one of in a static situation.

    What I just described is the huge different between his initial explanation at the start of video one and what he is doing in video 2. But some of that is already present just in video 1, between the initial explanation and his later demonstration on which you picked up.

    Even when analyzing the competitive video, there is much to say about, not just about the uchi-mata, but about so many things. I know his adversary in his first match very well as I trained with him often and did randori with him a lot. I have never known to react like this or use clumsy body positions like that. Also, he was a technically very accomplished jûdôka and I know he beat Koga once. What is going on ? I can tell you. What is going on is that he never realized his full potential despite his successes such as winning a European title and a silver medal on the worlds, the reason being that he suffered from very considerable psychological issues. Having to fight a Japanese, certainly in those days, and in a major contest always meant some level of intimidation in the sense that you simply knew that they were technically outstanding. But those are the rules of the game. You can be the best judoka ever, but if you crumble due to pressure, and your opponent is technically not up to your level (obviously not implying that this is the case here), then so be it since psychological strength is part of the overall picture. Sadly, not everyone has the rock-hard self-confidence of a Geesink, and in this case. The press often plays a role in creating this pressure too, but again, that's reality, and some jûdôka can handle it and some can't.
    \

    Very nice post, and it mirrors my experience in teaching Judo (I'm obviously not an elite athlete, never was). Even at my low level of skill, the same thing happens..instruction must be simplified, modified to fit the capabilities and interests of the "audience".

    As I know you already know, just try to teach Uchi Mata to a child. Very, very few will be able to do anything even approximating uchi mata (or any other throw that requires standing on one leg). Most can't even balance on one leg let alone with another person's weight one them (true of most teens and adults, too).

    I recently graduated my first two shodan (about a year ago)ever, in 25 years of teaching Judo. One had done judo since he was 7 years old, with no breaks except for summer and injuries, the other since he was 9 or 10. Both are 19 years old, and tested for shodan at 18 or just turned 19. I taught them for a while, then had to stop for work, then continuously for 3-4 years as teenagers. They went through the clumsy falling all over the tatami (and everywhere else stage), growth spurts, etc., (although because of their previous training in Judo and very active lifestyles, they weren't too terrible). I only really introduced the more difficult sutemi and counters (e.g., Yoko Otoshi, Uki Waza, Ushiro Goshi, Utsuri Goshi) when they tested for ikkyu. This is contrary to most judo "syllabi" around.

    Why? They simply were not coordinated enough to make it worthwhile to do them in detail. Due to the above named factors, plus, their overall skill at kihon waza (tai sabaki, shisei, overall "control/ Kinesthetic awareness", as you note above). I'd try from time to time, then leave them alone. Finally, when when they were qualified to start preparing for ikkyu, I reintroduced the more "difficult" throws. Lo and behold, something magic had happened ! They could do them, learned them sufficiently in a few weeks. The transformation was stunning, but was what I had been waiting for all along. They even really enjoyed them, starting feeling connections to other techniques, etc. It wasn't my brilliant teaching ability, or superior skill at the particular techniques, but something had finally "clicked" in them...they were on their way to shodan. After that "clicking", their judo improved again in a seemingly "quantum" manner. So it was a synergistic event, a small culmination, not a final one by any means, but important nonetheless.

    I think that is the marker for shodan in Judo (my opinion). That overall understanding and physical ability to "do Judo" and learn new Judo because one has somehow absorbed enough of the basics that the physical similarities make sense (maybe not consciously).

    Anyway, it's frustrating as you describe it, almost maddeningly so at times. I've had to learn to be patient and wait for conditions to ripen (kinda like making beer, cheese, etc, which I also do, LOL), then something wonderful happens.




    Shindai Warrior

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    Re: Uchi-mata - Hidehiko Yoshida

    Post by Shindai Warrior on Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:51 am

    I notice that many 8-10 yrs of age do not have sufficient co-ordination of their lower and upper body. 

    A lack of exercise involving getting up and down off the floor seems to be the case. Children used to watch tv on a carpet and were thus always getting up and down.  Chairs should be only for temporary rest purposes in between movement.

    I think emphasis or integrating the exercise known as the burpee into various games and warm-ups, where doing it well and repeatedly would ameliorate this. They could watch themselves in the mirror doing it and be encouraged when their feet leave the mat on the jump.

    Until this strength and flexibility has been acquired, it's almost impossible for them to do forward rolls, cartwheels and ukemi rolls. 

    Those with a sibling close in age are far more agile and co-ordinated, accustomed to physical contact and the bumps, bruises and sprains that activity brings.

    C.K.s note about early near sightedness is interesting. I've notice a difficulty for them to keep their attention focused even for short periods when the instructor is more that about a mat length away. 

    I'm beginning to think the instructor or assistants need to demonstrate a technique to about 4 to 6 students, then to the next group, and again to the next group.  Otherwise only the few more experienced and talented end up picking up what is going on. 

    There is a rumour from somewhere that children under puberty don't have the strength to do a traditional O Goshi, but I think as long as the partner is close in size and height, it is more a matter of flexibility and co-ordination.

    I think that throw is unique in the degrees of control that can be acquired learning it, in turning over an uke and being responsible for seeing uke turn over and holding on to uke's sleeve and only uke's sleeve, so that uke can do ukemi.

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