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    what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

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    genetic judoka

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    what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by genetic judoka on Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:11 am

    what happens if I try a flying armbar in shiai under today's rules?

    I believe the rule more or less says a competitor may not touch their opponent's legs with their hands or arms...

    now I imagine nobody would be disqualified when their opponent's action brings the legs to the arm, but as I understand it you can no longer block tomoe nage by pushing the leg aside, so yeah...


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:38 am

    Shouldn't this be in the comedy section?


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    Davaro

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by Davaro on Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:28 am

    As a current ref, I simply have to agree with Ben.

    Short answer... Dunno!


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:20 am

    I keep being told any attempt at a standing choke, armbar, or "jumping entry" to a armbar is immediate matte'...but in reality, I dunno either.



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    BillC

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by BillC on Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:59 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:I keep being told any attempt at a standing choke, armbar, or "jumping entry" to a armbar is immediate matte'...but in reality, I dunno either.


    If true, better train guys to break the arm before matte is called I guess?!

    Un-intended consequences ... the more rules the more of them one will have.

    This whole thing seems to make the Continental types giddy that they are making judo "their game" but I wonder if anyone in the EU knows ... or cares ... about the extent to which people are simply ignoring these recent rule changes in practice ... figuring "they'll be changed again" ... and meantime going back to teguruma, etc. I predict we'll see them in the California State Games next month despite my admonitions to the contrary. Maybe I'll repeat my suggestion that if you really want to give the middle finger, dump your opponent on the corner ref (who somehow will be an exception) or even the scoring table?

    "Take that US judo orgs, send a message back to Vizer about what a great job he's doing."

    Shoot ... something I can encourage ... I have even seen a tiny indication towards more interest in kata among a very few that want to learn "real judo." Sometimes good stuff happens too!


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:50 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:I keep being told any attempt at a standing choke, armbar, or "jumping entry" to a armbar is immediate matte'...but in reality, I dunno either.


    If true, better train guys to break the arm before matte is called I guess?!

    Un-intended consequences ... the more rules the more of them one will have.

    This whole thing seems to make the Continental types giddy that they are making judo "their game" but I wonder if anyone in the EU knows ... or cares ... about the extent to which people are simply ignoring these recent rule changes in practice ... figuring "they'll be changed again" ... and meantime going back to teguruma, etc. I predict we'll see them in the California State Games next month despite my admonitions to the contrary. Maybe I'll repeat my suggestion that if you really want to give the middle finger, dump your opponent on the corner ref (who somehow will be an exception) or even the scoring table?

    "Take that US judo orgs, send a message back to Vizer about what a great job he's doing."

    Shoot ... something I can encourage ... I have even seen a tiny indication towards more interest in kata among a very few that want to learn "real judo." Sometimes good stuff happens too!

    Remember the controversy about applying the armbar while still in the air that arose when a certain BJJ influenced California judoka started doing tobi juji and submitting guys while still in the air? That was a big topic of discussion on the old JF for a while...

    LOL at tossing people onto the corner judges or even worse the score table ! I've seen both done quite deliberately, best was a huge fat judoka who got thrown into the large scoreboard at the US Open eons ago. With Te Guruma no less..

    I ignore them in randori pretty much, but my competitive students don't, as they don't want to lose by a crappy penalty in event of a tied match. that reminds me, I need to work on my Kuchiki Daoshi as it doesn't both my effed up shoulder too much, LOL.

    I'd like to see simplified rules for kids and beginners, just let them do Judo and don't worry about Olympic aspirations. The tiny percentage of judoka who want to compete seriously should have their own divisions with IJF rules.

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    Stacey

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by Stacey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:46 am

    Like most judoka, I've never had Olympic aspirations. I just want to play judo. Any more, "you can't do this, and you have to do that" sort of rules and the only way you'll be able to distinguish us from ballroom dancing is by the uniform.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by genetic judoka on Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:49 am

    so what I have not gleaned from this thread is: what happens if I try a flying armbar under today's rules?


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    Stacey

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by Stacey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:04 am

    genetic judoka wrote:so what I have not gleaned from this thread is: what happens if I try a flying armbar under today's rules?

    simple: what happens with any other questionable move in shiai - it depends on who the ref is and how s/he interprets the rules. You may win. You may get hansokomake.
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    Stacey

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by Stacey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:05 am

    chances are, they'll call matte. There will be a conference of refs. The head ref may be called over. By the time anything really happens, you'll have caught your breath and you may no longer be warm.
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    BillC

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by BillC on Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:59 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    LOL at tossing people onto the corner judges or even worse the score table ! I've seen both done quite deliberately, best was a huge fat judoka who got thrown into the large scoreboard at the US Open eons ago. With Te Guruma no less.


    Well the Grand Prix is coming up in Miami this weekend I guess. Perhaps unlucky players, having already instinctively picked up their opponent in teguruma, will conclude that they are already screwed and make such an exit? We are forgetting the CARE table, which might be a more appropriate symbolic target. Nah, maybe the only soft target is the center ref, no need to impale one's opponent on broken display glass to make the point.

    Extra style points for photos of a referee with a "deer caught in headlights" expression.


    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    I'd like to see simplified rules for kids and beginners, just let them do Judo and don't worry about Olympic aspirations. The tiny percentage of judoka who want to compete seriously should have their own divisions with IJF rules.


    Seriously, send notes and emails to Kevin and Robert at the JF, Gary at the JA, since they both have a degree of independence from the POV of sanctioning ... and if you think it will do any good Lance at USA Judo ... though to be fair it's his job to sell this and keep it under control.


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    BillC

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by BillC on Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:01 am

    genetic judoka wrote:so what I have not gleaned from this thread is: what happens if I try a flying armbar under today's rules?

    Our YDK has a "new rules" clinic on the 23rd. I'll bring this up then.


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    Heisenberg

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by Heisenberg on Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:40 pm

    Well, I can tell you what happened to me at a shiai last month. The match started and an opportunity for a standing choke presented, and I went for it. Matte. Shido. Can't cross grip. Hajime. My opponent initiated a flying juji-gatame and got me to the ground. As soon as we hit the ground ref called Matte, Ippon. Never tapped, but the ref said he called it for my safety, nevermind that the juji wasn't set and I wasn't in any pain, and his tai sabake wasn't correct to properly set it. Still not happy about that, but I guess you can't win them all. There was no mention of the leg contact rule.


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    rjohnston411

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by rjohnston411 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:30 am

    *facepalm* 

    Are all Judo refs incompetent?
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    Neil G

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by Neil G on Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:40 am

    The new crossgrip rule is pretty sucky - my instructions last time was that the attack has to flow pretty much continuously from the grip.  I speculate the ref didn't recognize that the choking attack was happening as we so seldom see standing chokes attempted.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:13 am

    I remember you telling that story. it's a shame, because I love standing chokes, and hearing that story tells me that there are refs here in FL who may do the same thing against me.

    I love standing chokes because they're a great potentially-ippon-scoring defense against a great many forward throw attempts (for example, nobody tries to do soto makikomi on me at the dojo anymore because they've all learned firsthand about a particular very effective standing choke I do).

    and rjohnston, no not all refs are incompetent. many are very good. some are excellent. all are volunteers, without which the tournaments wouldn't run. and most, like yourself, are always trying to get better at judo (and being a ref is an aspect of judo). it's just a shame that the place and time for them to practice is the same place you go to compete.

    but since there are incompetent ones out there, it's not uncommon for people to blame a loss on an incompetent ref when it was actually the competitor who didn't understand the rules.


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    Heisenberg

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by Heisenberg on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:33 am

    One thing we all are learning (both refs, athletes, and spectators) is that it is difficult to understand and be good at something when the rules are in a constant state of flux. It isn't difficult to blow a call or run afoul of a new rule. Especially if the interpretation of such rule is in question. 
    How many baseball players would screw up if they changed the rotation of base running, or drivers if traffic light colors meant different things inside or outside of the city limits, or chess players if bishops and rooks on a chess board changed roles?
    Are there any other sports or games that overhaul the rules of the game every couple of years?


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    finarashi

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    Re: what happens if I do a flying armbar under the new rules?

    Post by finarashi on Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:24 pm

    Heisenberg wrote:One thing we all are learning (both refs, athletes, and spectators) is that it is difficult to understand and be good at something when the rules are in a constant state of flux. It isn't difficult to blow a call or run afoul of a new rule. Especially if the interpretation of such rule is in question. 
    How many baseball players would screw up if they changed the rotation of base running, or drivers if traffic light colors meant different things inside or outside of the city limits, or chess players if bishops and rooks on a chess board changed roles?
    Are there any other sports or games that overhaul the rules of the game every couple of years?

    Wrestling?


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