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    Jerry Hays

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    Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by Jerry Hays on Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:33 am

    Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Entry Fee –

    Domestic contestants - $85 to $130 per contestant depending on date and method of registration.
    International contestants - $50 per contestant

    Hotel Room Rate –

    Domestic - $105.00 for double, triple or quad, plus tax (15%) for a total of $120.75.

    International - The rates are $110.00 for single, double, triple or quad. No mention of tax, and reservation must be made through USA Judo.

    International Contestants may participate in the IJF, Juvenile A & B, Intermediate 1 & 2 and Bantam Categories in the Junior Olympic Nationals AND in the International divisions on Sunday.  

    Source – USA Judo Entry Packages for both domestic and International contestants.
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    Stacey

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by Stacey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:25 am

    wow, so screw the US kids and their parents.....

    My understanding was that US athletes could also participate in the international comp.

    Jerry Hays

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by Jerry Hays on Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:38 am

    Stacey wrote:My understanding was that US athletes could also participate in the international comp.

    True, Stacey.

    In the past, the first two days of this event, only US athletes could participate. Then on Sunday, the International was open to all who had the money. This year, International contestants can play all three days.
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    NBK

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by NBK on Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:47 pm

    Consider me clueless - aren't all 'Olympic' events international? Or is this an Olympic qualifying round? Then it's misnamed.

    Jerry Hays

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by Jerry Hays on Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:54 pm

    NBK wrote:Consider me clueless - aren't all 'Olympic' events international? Or is this an Olympic qualifying round? Then it's misnamed.

    In the United States, many sports host Junior Olympic events. Normally they are open to US Citizens only. For some of the sports, you must qualify at a regional tournament. For judo, there are no qualification tournaments.

    saraf

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by saraf on Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:45 pm

    No
    It seems to me that USA Judo violated their bylaws!
    Article 4 of the bylaws of United States Judo, Inc.
    Section 4.1. Recognition as a National Governing Body
    USA Judo is recognized by the USOC as the national governing body for the sport of judo in the United States. In furtherance of that purpose, USA Judo shall comply with the requirements for recognition as a national governing body as set forth in the Sports Act and as required by the USOC, as such requirements are promulgated or revised from time to time. In fulfilling those requirements USA Judo shall:
    see section h. Provide an equal opportunity to amateur athletes, coaches, trainers, managers, administrators, and officials to participate in judo competitions without discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion age, sex, or national origin

    My kids had to pay more than international competitors that is discrimination on the basis of national origin!
    I paid $225 dollars for my son to compete in Juv B & IJF National Jr Olympics and the Juv B International competition = $ 75 overcharged
    and I paid $ 155 for my daughter to compete in the Juv B National Jr. Olympics and the Juv B International competition = $55 overcharged! How do I file a complaint?


    Last edited by saraf on Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Stacey

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by Stacey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:03 pm

    federal court. sue them for damages and tack on whatever you can in terms of costs, emotional distress, etc. find a good federal sports lawyer - major league baseball has a number of them.

    saraf

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by saraf on Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:15 pm

    Here is what was on the registration form ( that most who registered for the tournament online don't even read)

    ELIGIBILITY FOR JUNIOR ATHLETES

    Domestic contestants may participate in both the domestic and international categories if they meet the following eligibility requirements:

    1. Athletes must be a United States Citizen (with copy of passport or birth certificate required or verification of citizenship on USA Judo membership card), OR may be a non-United States citizen who is residing in the United States legally, i.e., student VISA, valid Green Card, visitor’s VISA, work VISA, etc. Original documentation of legal residency must be presented during the registration process.

    2. A current member in good standing of USA JUDO (United States Judo, Inc.) regardless of citizenship. A copy of membership card is required.

    3. Born between 1993 and 2007 inclusively. International event is 1993 – 2004 only.

    4. Juv A athletes may apply for Age Waiver to allow them to also enter the IJF Jr divisions.

    (see http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Judo/Athletes/Juniors/2012-USA-Judo-Age-Waiver-Resolution.aspx. Age Waiver applications MUST reach Jim Hrbek via email (judolym@aol.com) by June 7, 2013)

    The tournament director reserves the right to make all final decisions on events related to and surrounding these championships.


    International Contestants may participate in the IJF, Juvenile A & B, Intermediate 1 & 2 and Bantam Categories in the Junior Olympic Nationals AND in the International divisions on Sunday if they meet the following eligibility requirements:

    1. Non U.S. Citizens:

    Athletes must compete for the country of which they are a citizen and must present a letter from their country’s federation stating that they are a member in good standing and have the Federation’s permission to compete. Proof of Citizenship must be presented at Tournament Check-in. Passports are mandatory for all citizens of countries other than the United States.

    2. Citizens of No Country:

    Individuals who are not citizens of any country, but are authorized by the Department of Justice of the United States to remain in the United States, may participate by meeting the criteria for U.S. citizens.


    Note: Points will only be awarded to those meeting the criteria as outlined in the USA Judo Junior Elite Classification/Point System. In order to be listed on any USA Judo Junior Elite National Roster, an athlete must be a United States citizen and eligible to participate as a member of a USA Judo team. Age Waivered athletes do NOT earn points in the older group.


    NEW—The USA Judo Roster points now awarded for U.S. Citizens entering the International categories will be as follows: 1st place 5 points; 2nd place 3 points; 3rd place 2 points.


    So why are there domestic categories and international categories if international players competed in the National Jr. Olympics? Most domestic competitors were not aware of the changes because there is still an International Jr. Olympics on Sunday. I did not read the qualifications for the international players because my kids are US citizens so I did not see the "and".
    The problem is this a major points tournament for Juniors and it is the last tournament to get points to qualify for the wild cards.
    The two IJF Junior Male Athletes and the two IJF Junior Female athletes, who competed in IJF Juniors at the 2013 USA Judo Scholastic & Youth Nationals, who are not in the same weight division, and who have the highest individual division point totals on the IJF Junior roster produced after the conclusion of the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympic National Championships will become the two Male and Female Wild Cards that will compete in the 2013 Junior World Championships. The two Cadet Male Athletes and the two Cadet Female athletes, who competed in Cadet (Juvenile B) division at the 2013 USA Judo Scholastic & Youth Nationals, who are not in the same weight division, and who have the highest individual division point totals on the Cadet (Juvenile B) roster produced after the conclusion of the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympic National Championships will become the two Male and Female Wild Cards that will compete in the 2013 Cadet World Championships. There are categories, I believe it's the Juv B 73 kg that had 2 international competitors take 1 and 2nd. The 3rd place (ranked 1st in USA roster) got 3rd. Will he only get 4 points? A first place would have given him 10 points and he I believe he would have the second wild card spot! and by the way he won the 2012 JO. How unfair that his division had international players and some of the other divisions did not (Juv B 90kg and 90+ kg) and those 2 divisions will have the highest individual division points.
    I would be mad as hell if I was the parent of the 3rd place Juv B 73 Kg!
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    BillC

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by BillC on Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:18 pm

    If there is anyone more clueless than Mr. Natural Born Killer, it's me.

    Sorry Jerry-sensei, but I have no idea why anyone would pay for their kids to participate in this nonsense in the first place.

    And sorry to you, kind Sara F.  ... it just occcurred to me who you probably are ... but that's the way I feel about international events for juniors younger than college age.

    And ... you can tell Roland F. he need not worry about 112 in Texas ... it was nearly that hot at your house today.

    Safe home.

    - Bill


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    saraf

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by saraf on Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:50 am

    So USA Judo is still misleading it's membership by sending out emails with the following headline:
    " Once Again, Winners Come From All Over
    The United States To Medal On Day Two
    Of USA Judo’s Junior National Championships"
    so today the international divisions are competing. They posted the Junior Olympic International Draws and yet another Championship, the North/Central American Judo Championships Draws. Never saw this last Championship anywhere in the paperwork... and Iceland belongs to Europe not North or Central America!
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:45 am

    I find it absurd that the US hosts its own domestic tournament called the "Olympics". I think the term Olympics should be reserved for the real thing - the genuine Olympic Games and the Para Olympics. Surely the name is protected in some way?


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    Q mystic

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by Q mystic on Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:50 am

    Jonesy wrote:I find it absurd that the US hosts its own domestic tournament called the "Olympics". I think the term Olympics should be reserved for the real thing - the genuine Olympic Games and the Para Olympics.  Surely the name is protected in some way?

    Canada does the same. Only for juniors, too. Or, they used to anyway. Not sure if they still do.


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    Jonesy

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:36 am

    Q mystic wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:I find it absurd that the US hosts its own domestic tournament called the "Olympics". I think the term Olympics should be reserved for the real thing - the genuine Olympic Games and the Para Olympics.  Surely the name is protected in some way?

    Canada does the same. Only for juniors, too. Or, they used to anyway. Not sure if they still do.
    Equally wrong.
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    finarashi

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by finarashi on Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:43 am

    OC did the same than Kano; thought about copyright too late. When they did there was already events with Olympic in their name. Can not stop what is established? So only adults and Olympic rings are copyrighted.

    BTW EJU participates in https://utrecht2013.com/en/ European Youth olympic Festivals



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    saraf

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by saraf on Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:47 am

    Many sports in the US hold Junior Olympic Championships, such as gymnastics, volleyball, track and field, shooting, fencing, boxing, water polo (am sure there are more) all organized by their national governing body. Most hold qualifying tournaments and require US citizenship or legal resident status to be eligible to compete. This was the case with USA Junior Olympics in the past. A few years ago an international division was added to the USA Judo Junior Olympics, I have no problem with that, it is great for US athletes to have the opportunity to compete with international judoka. However, the USA Judo Junior Olympic Nationals is one of the major junior tournaments to earn points on the USA Judo Elite Athlete Roster and having international competitors in the national tournament takes away the opportunity for US athletes to compete against their follow US judoka and earn points. It is not fair that some weight categories had international players and others did not especially since this was a qualifying tournament for the Junior World Championship and the Cadet World Championship.
    Still why did US competitors pay more than international competitors? and they also got transportation form the airport to the venue.
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    NBK

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by NBK on Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:46 am

    Stacey wrote:federal court. sue them for damages and tack on whatever you can in terms of costs, emotional distress, etc.  find a good federal sports lawyer - major league baseball has a number of them.

    Seems Stacey hit the nail on the head. In sequence
    - contact them nicely, ask for a refund and a change of policy in the future
    - have your lawyer " "
    - sue 'em

    If you have nitwits in leadership positions that can't even read their own Constitution, you'll end up looking like Washington, DC.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:54 am

    Without knowing all the details and rationale as provided by USA Judo, all one can do is speculate. Even though the different participation categories in the US were apparently considered normal by its citizens, there were various oddities  in the past too. It seems to me that part of the real rationale behind the creation of those categories were to artificially create opportunities for people to win medals who otherwise would not.

    In most countries the situation with tournaments was pretty straightforward in the past, and boiled down to:

    - National championships: accessible originally only for its citizens
    - International tournament/championships: accessible to only the national team officially sent to the tournament by an IJF country
    - International open tournament/championships: accessible to everyone with an IJF license/membership card

    Over time a number of problems arose. Well, that is to say, some of these were not really 'problems' but they were considered as 'problems' by some federations. What does that mean ?  Judo federations are power-hungry and control-freaks. They can very nasty or envious when their often political decisions fail to control everybody.

    Here's just one example that occurred a long time ago. Imagine this ... for political reasons and personal manipulation two judoka do not get selected for the national team the federation wants to send to an International Open Tournament. Guess what ?  The two judoka register themselves (which was completely legitimate) and decided to pay for their own travel transport, lodging registration. Outcome: no one in the official national team wins anything and the team returns home without a medal. Of the two judoka who were not selected by the federation, one athlete wins a gold medal, the other silver. How do you think a typical judo federation in its infinite wisdom would react to this ?  With congratulations and encouragement and respect, you would think ?  Right ...

    This was one of the major starting points why it was lobbied within the EJU to curtail the freedom of individual judoists so that federations could better establish totalitarian control over everything and everyone. Of course, the real reason wasn't actually used in the discussion, just like the real reasons for the 1998 change in weight divisions was not revealed to the outside world or officially brought into the discussions.

    There is something else that 'may' have influenced what is seen in the way categories are dealt with now in the US.

    Following a verdict of the European Court of Justice in 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosman_ruling) with regard to the free choice of travel and employment for all citizens of Europe within the EU, questions were raised about how some national federations in Europe restricted participation to certain judo tournaments to citizens only. From one side, there is the argument that how can someone be national champion of country X if he/she does not hold citizenship of country X; from the other side there is the argument, if individual Y is working in country X has established residency in country X, the should he travel all the way back each year for every tournament in coutry Y where he holds citizenship but where he does not resided ?  If so, is this not in contradiction with the principle of free traffic of persons ?

    This became even more a problem since a number of countries clearly followed other policies. It was also strange. Just look at European soccer and basketball. Half the players these days are imported. Got back somewhat in time and which clubs would nationally dominate basketball ?  Those who had imported Americans. So the case of judo, trying to restrict particiation to national tournaments to citizens of their own country did not match what was seen in other countries and was also inconsistent depending on the country. The same applies to restricting membership of judo federations to citizens. If so, one would make it practically impossible for anyone who is not a citizen to legitimately do judo in the country where he lives. If you argue that that nothing keeps the person from taking a license in his country of citizenship and then practice abroad where he lives, that is not quite true. It is not true because in most federations in Europe you cannot individually apply for a license; it has to be done through a club. In addition, the rules of the federation and its insurance may be such that your insurance may be restricted to your own country unless your are part of the national team officially sent out for participation in a tournament abroad by your federation. Clearly continuous participation in judo activity abroad, with 'abroad' referring to the country where you live but of which you do not hold citizenship, do not fall within that category. The absence of being insured either being insured oneself or liablility towards other judoka, would then effectively preclude participation in judo in any country but your own, unless you were a member of a national team on official business, or there was some special letter of dispensation from the sending and receiving judo federation, or you would find a 'friendly' judo club willing to let you participate "without anyone knowing".

    Years ago someone went to court because he was denied permission to participate in national championships of the country where he resided but did not hold citizenship. He won the law suit and in consequence of that all federations in Europe were recommended to adapt their regulations in accordance. Many, perhaps most, have since. It may very well be that what is being seen in terms of changes in the US has something to do with this. Even though the US obviously is not subject to European jurisdiction regarding anything that happens within its own territorial confines, one should not forget that the IJF is European-dominated, and it may very well be that there have been IJF "recommendations" in particular if there was a likelihood for non-Americans particularly from Europe who were planning on participating since in case of lawsuits from them, the EJU/IJF is at risk. I am not at all saying that in the end this was solved in the best possible way (clearly if a domestic person would have to pay more than an international player, that seems at first side odd, although it isn't exactly clear what the rationale is; whether the different treatment of people on the basis of nationality automatically amounts to discrimination has been debated since long. There a numerous cases where such differences exist and where they are commonly embraced by US citizens. One of the most well-known case are the eligibility requirements to run for president. He needs to be a natural born citizen of the US. Clearly that is a totally different treatment rule not just of people of different nationality, but even of people of the same nationality depending on whether they were naturalized or not. In fact one could argue that this instals a "quality difference" between citizenship that was obtained later or not, and whether a naturalized citizen is truly a citizen now that not all rights are extended to them. The classification "enemy combatants" or how to what extent someone who is not a citizen but just a visitor can invoke the first or fifth amendment suggest that there are numerous instances where law and courts apparently justify different treatment of people based on nationality). Do not get me wrong, I am not DEFENDING this, I am only drawing people's attention that things may be a bit more complicated than what is visible at first sight. Apart from that, I think it is an excellent idea for people to sue judo federations. They should do so a lot more as it is the only thing that has proven to work in breaking the erratic and often totalitatian and pseudo-feudal attitude that judo federations like to exhibit. That being said, I do not recommend baseless suing either. At the least, one should first ask and receive a prompt and honest clarification as to why something is the way it is. It is not because something is not known to a large group that there might be malicious motives behind something. Poor communication on behalf of the federation is a bad thing, but responding to that with legal action may not be the most constructive way forward either, in particular if those implementing the rule had an honest intention to do good to the wider community and honestly yet perhaps erroneously thought that their idea was for the betterment of something.


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    Jerry Hays

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    Fuzzy Math

    Post by Jerry Hays on Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:21 pm

    USA Judo, recently stated – “USA Judo Junior Olympic Champs A Record Breaker Tops 1000 Entrants”.

    Well according to my math on the bracket sheets published by USA Judo, we have 504 contestants for the first two days of competition.  That was 104 divisions, which included eight divisions that were uncontested and fifteen divisions with only two contestants.

    On the third day of competition, they had 93 bracket sheets with a total of 372 contestants.  Of those 93 divisions, eleven were uncontested and 21 divisions with only contestants.

    I find that 504 and 372 totals 876.  I do not understand how this equals 1,000.
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    JudoSensei

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by JudoSensei on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:36 am

    Jerry Hays wrote:USA Judo, recently stated – “USA Judo Junior Olympic Champs A Record Breaker Tops 1000 Entrants”.

    Well according to my math on the bracket sheets published by USA Judo, we have 504 contestants for the first two days of competition.  That was 104 divisions, which included eight divisions that were uncontested and fifteen divisions with only two contestants.

    On the third day of competition, they had 93 bracket sheets with a total of 372 contestants.  Of those 93 divisions, eleven were uncontested and 21 divisions with only contestants.

    I find that 504 and 372 totals 876.  I do not understand how this equals 1,000.

    Nearly 200 divisions is a lot. How many people actually participated? Most contestants fight in multiple divisions, so the numbers on the bracket sheets are not a count of actual contestants. To me, "entrants" means the number of people participating and should not count the number of matches each contestant has in multiple divisions.

    Jerry Hays

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    Re: Comments on the 2013 USA Judo Junior Olympics

    Post by Jerry Hays on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:21 am

    In post #18 (above) I stated that I had counted only 876 contestants at the USA Judo Junior Olympics for 2013.  I have since recounted them and I was mistaken.  I have a total of 1,042.

    My sincere apologize to USA Judo and its staff.

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