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    Off-the-tatami physical training tips for ambitious judoka

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Off-the-tatami physical training tips for ambitious judoka

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:04 pm

    There are regularly some questions or discussions here about training, but most pertain to just judo, or just weight lifting or some really general aerobic training. I'd like to add two videos that discuss in an understandable way concepts that, in my view, are extremely useful for underpinning the physical and physiological performance of a judoka and which are still too often ignored. Mind that what is said is still a simplification though. We are talking here still of 'normal' people (not about Olympic elite athletes as they are nor normal people and can do not normal things due to their not-normal genetics) so something that is useful for all of you




    The following is a quite simple workout that is not bad at all, and that is widely applicable to various levels of judo fitness. After all, the better you are the more intense you do it:




    You do not need complicated schedules and genius training guru. When thinking of the two above videos, add to that the different parameters within the principles of training:

    - frequency
    - duration
    - intensity
    - repetition
    - overload

    You can play with these parameters when you do your training. Your training should not stagnate. It should over time increase and those increases you achieve by manipulating one, or two or all of the above training. It's like the carrot in front of the donkey, you should always strive for more, for something you can't quite do yet.


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Patrol1985

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    Re: Off-the-tatami physical training tips for ambitious judoka

    Post by Patrol1985 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:49 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:We are talking here still of 'normal' people (not about Olympic elite athletes as they are nor normal people and can do not normal things due to their not-normal genetics)

    That was a very good post CK, but it would be even better if you acknowledged the not-normal work ethic of olympic athletes as well. The way you put it repeats a stereotype that it's all about winning the gene lottery Rolling Eyes. I'm not saying this factor is not important, because it is, but I just believe in giving credit where it is due.

    Nevertheless, thanks for the informative post!
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Off-the-tatami physical training tips for ambitious judoka

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:14 am

    Patrol1985 wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:We are talking here still of 'normal' people (not about Olympic elite athletes as they are nor normal people and can do not normal things due to their not-normal genetics)

    That was a very good post CK, but it would be even better if you acknowledged the not-normal work ethic of olympic athletes as well. The way you put it repeats a stereotype that it's all about winning the gene lottery Rolling Eyes. I'm not saying this factor is not important, because it is, but I just believe in giving credit where it is due.

    Nevertheless, thanks for the informative post!

    Thanks for the comment. In my previous post I tried to be concise. Sometimes I try to be exhaustive. This time I tried the opposite, and I also tried to keep it simple.

    I used the term "Olympic elite" athletes. This term was a conscious choice, and I wanted to contrast it with "Olympic" athletes and "elite" athletes. Thus, with "Olympic elite" I was referring to the elite among the Olympic athletes, i.e. those Olympic athletes who also bring medals home. After all, almost 'everyone' can participate in the Olympics, if the sports does not have sharp minimals one has to reach first and if your conditions are ideal; with that I mean, if your country is small and insignificant enough, your level in a sport may be mediocre on an international level, but you then still are an Olympic athlete, you know, the ones that never make it further than the first round. Those were thus not the ones I meant in my response. You mention "work ethics". This is a difficult to measurable criterion, and something that is not at all general. I have known people who participated in the Olympics who were right out lazy to the extent that it was somewhat embarrassing. I am thinking of a runner I personally knew (begin 1980s), who was from a smaller country, who most likely used roids but was never caught in those days, who when he came to training, most of the time was sitting down on the track, every half hour or so got up to do something. He went to the Olympics, sometimes even made it to the second round, no, no medals. Then you have the complete opposite, a true training beast like the notorious Van De Walle, but he was an Olympic medal winner, even an Olympic champion. That is the difference between "participating in the Olympics" and "coming back with an Olympic medal". That difference was behind my choice of the term "Olympic elite" athlete.

    "Work ethic" becomes a complex term as it is intertwined with psychological and motivational strength, but also with injury proneness, and professional statute as a sporter (is the athlete in some role that he can professionally train, or is he or she something that meanwhile has to hold a standard 9 to 5 job ?)

    When referring to the "Olympic athlete" I deliberately used the term "not normal" not because genetics is a stereotype but because there are truly things going on that cannot be properly explained with the simplified approaches explained in the videos which target a lay person audience. For example, a way that aerobic training and burning fat is explained to lay people is low intensity which you can sustain for a long time. Let's take a straightforward discipline and avoid judo where the nature of the fight and opponent may make one fight totally different from another fight. Therefore, let's take marathon running. People who in the Olympics win medals in the marathon. They run at an average speed of +20 km/h (+12.5 mph). Is this low intensity ?  Clearly not. 3000 m steeple, less than 8 minutes. Is this low intensity ?  Clearly not. But this has to be aerobic, no ? After all the anaerobic system would be exhausted in 45-90 seconds. So how is this possible ?  You try running at a speed of 20 km/h and see how long you can sustain this. Then, try to imagine doing this for >2 hrs. This is not normal. This is also not a mere effect of "work ethic". These people can sustain >85 % VO2max for hours, not normal. Some things develop in response to training, such as for example cardiac out put, left ventricular function, and of course lean body mass. That does, however, not explain the entire picture. When you look at some aerobic events, like cross-country skiing, and look at the champions, you will find a high proportion of remarkable genetics; not saying you cannot find exceptions, but overall ...  For example, you find total lung capacity that is often exceptional. That's not a mere function of training. You do not create large lungs by training. Large lungs allow exceptional minute ventilations. The minute ventilation does not mean much in the absence of significant oxygen uptake, but in the presence of a trained body with high LBM, stroke volume, arterio venous difference, and high oxygen uptake, that high minute ventilation is going to come into play and ensure higher oxygen uptake. The same applies for many factors which cannot be trained, or where training would not make much difference, such as in the case of ethnic predisposition. There's reason the final of an Olympic swimming final is populated by ethnically quite different looking people from the 100m sprint in track and field. "Work ethic" is not going to change much there, and the "stereotype" finds grounds in scientific basis. Not to say that some of it can't be overcome, but then rather as an exception instead of the rule. Allan Wells is an Olympic champion 100 m (Moscow 1980) who looks quite different from the rest; so he isn't exception who breaks with the stereotype. But ... how did he break that stereotype ?  By the only thing that can help interfering with genetics ...

    One of the big mistakes that has been made and is still being made in training of judo elite squads (and the obvious reason is the lack of scientific involvement) is a generalized training for the team. Usually does not work, although the effect of it not working is skewed in Japanese and Korean judoists for the simple reason that it does not matter too much for those dropping out because there are enough alternatives that can step in. In most countries that is not so, and what will then happen is that that specific weight category for years has someone who might dominate nationally but cannot make it internationally, but still remains in the squad. To put it simple, if every judoka would train like Van De Walle, every judoka would win Olympic medals ?  No. Many would never be able to train like that no matter how hard they would try, no matter what work ethic they might have. The ability to train is in itself a genetic advantage, so it's not only the outcome of the training which has a genetic component. Yesterday, a woman tried swimming the English Channel. Now she's dead. Why ?  Didn't she train for it ?  Of course, she did. Then why did she die while so many others did not, or alternatively would not have the ability to swim the English Channel. I know for 200% sure that no matter how hard I would train, I could never come even close to swimming the English Channel, and this merely on the base of genetics. Why did she die ?  They don't know. I suspect she might well have died as a consequence of severe arithmia caused by electrolyte changes. Why ?  Because some people's physiological homeostatic responses fail to do what those systems can take in others. I mentioned cross-country skiing. I could not be even a mediocre cross-country skiier. I am that bad, and no matter how hard I would train  --yes, I could increase my level--   but I would still remain poor. Why ?  Because it is impossible for me to train in that even to transcend my serious genetic limitations. Here's just one. Cross-country skiing requires environmental conditions, namely snow. For there to be snow, the temperature has to be below a certain level. At that level, namely what we call 'cold' there are effects on physiological functioning. Physiological responses to cold are highly genetic and virtually untrainable. That is a peculiarity. You see, responses to heat are also genetically determined, but they are well trainable. In other words, one can train well for heat circumstances, but not for cold circumstances. Of course people diving in ice train for it, but ... those people are already genetically equipped for it, and someone who is not, drops out way before that because they can't withstand it, and training has virtually no effect. Consequently, people who are or even could be successful in cross-country skiing have to be sufficiently genetically equipped for their physiology to have the ability to adequately homeostatically respond to cold, an ability which I do not have due to genetics, end of story.

    In all this, judo is a strange animal because of the combination of systems it relies on in order to be successful. A judoka with exceptional strategic skills but little endurance and strength might be able to win a fight against a much stronger and better trained judoka, by surprising him, but what is the likelihood he would be able to pull that off in round two for a second time ?  Almost nihil. His contest will have been watched, taped, analyzed, and conclusions from that achieved by the coach and opponent of the next round. In running, those strategic opportunities are far less. If it is on the street like marathon, yes, some runners will do much better or much worse, depending on whether the trajectory is flat or not hilly. Other strategic opportunities are sudden acceleration to see who can follow or who can't and will crack, but that's about it, apart from environmental conditions that might greatly differ depending on country and season. In a 100 m sprint, strategic opportunities are even less. The trajectory is never hilly, and always flat. Environmental conditions still play a role, such as wind, but no one does better in headwind obviously. Humidity and temperature play a role, not just in physiological responses but also in injury proneness (the pulled hamstring). Strategy is limited and not entirely under one's control in a 100 m spring, and limited to things such as the lane one is running in; one can't change that but certain lanes are considered better than others, in particular when there is a curb, like in the 200m, due to seeing the others run and due to which lanes is first entering and coming out of the curb. In, judo, the strategic component is much higher, and so is the sometimes incommensurable factor of the referee. Track and field has photo finish, judo until recently had no such thing. The trajectory which two competitive judoka do during a contest has indefinite possibilities, and so are the responses. In a 100 m sprint, the trajectory is set, and the possibilities limited to slow or fast start slow or fast ending, but those are more genetically determined than strategically. The distance is simply too short to intentionally start slow and end fast; in other words, those who do, do so because that are their limits.

    Watched a national elite judo team in preparation for the last Olympics. There were ropes hanging from the ceiling in the dojo. Saw the -60 kg Olympic hopefuls with a big smile running towards the ropes climb up the rope just with their hands, down without stepping on the ground, up again, down, again, up again and down again. Climbing up the ropes just by your hands three times without stepping on the ground. You see a +100 kg guy do that ?  You see a -100 kg or even a -90 kg guy doing that ?  Sure, you might know some exception, but normally, no way. Genetics. Genetics, that can't be overcome since the -100 kg guy cannot possibly cut weight to -60 kg. The -60 kg may be 5'3 whereas the -100kg my stand 6'5. Can't be overcome by work ethic. What can be overcome by work ethic is how that particular -100 or +100kg player performs on ropes in comparison to other players of the same weight, assuming that they have a similar proportion of lean body mass and other similar anthropometric characteristics.

    Genes are crucial, but I would not call it "gene lottery". Just the fact that someone has superbe genes do not make him or her Olympic athlete, but it is not a mere issue of work ethic. It can also be an issue of interest. My ex was an excellent slalom skier and runner, but she just hated competition and did not want to do it, period. Then there is the issue of choice of sport. What if Aleksandr Karelin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Karelin) one day would have decided to compete in judo. There's a great likelihood he would have become one of the most successful and unbeatable judo champions, but ... he did not enter judo. His choice. So, another factor besides genetics and work ethic ...

    So, certainly, lots of things to say, lots of things to add, but ... no lay person can in here still see the wood for the trees, and that is what I wanted to avoid with my initial post. I wanted to provide a simple usable thing, caveat for those which I called "not normal" such as those who represented the elite among the elite, and this for reasons I hope to have clarified somewhat better now.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:50 am; edited 5 times in total


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Off-the-tatami physical training tips for ambitious judoka

    Post by afulldeck on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:27 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Patrol1985 wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:We are talking here still of 'normal' people (not about Olympic elite athletes as they are nor normal people and can do not normal things due to their not-normal genetics)

    That was a very good post CK, but it would be even better if you acknowledged the not-normal work ethic of olympic athletes as well. The way you put it repeats a stereotype that it's all about winning the gene lottery Rolling Eyes. I'm not saying this factor is not important, because it is, but I just believe in giving credit where it is due.

    Nevertheless, thanks for the informative post!

    Thanks for the comment. In my previous post I tried to be concise. Sometimes I try to be exhaustive. This time I tried the opposite, and I also tried to keep it simple.

    I used the term "Olympic elite" athletes. This term was a conscious choice, and I wanted to contrast it with "Olympic" athletes and "elite" athletes. Thus, with "Olympic elite" I was referring to the elite among the Olympic athletes, i.e. those Olympic athletes who also bring medals home. After all, almost 'everyone' can participate in the Olympics, if the sports does not have sharp minimals one has to reach first and if your conditions are ideal; with that I mean, if your country is small and insignificant enough, your level in a sport may be mediocre on an international level, but you then still are an Olympic athlete, you know, the ones that never make it further than the first round. Those were thus not the ones I meant in my response. You mention "work ethics". This is a difficult to measure criterion, and something that is not at all general. I have known people who participated in the Olympics who were right out lazy to the extent that it was somewhat embarrassing. I am thinking of a runner I personally knew (begin 1980s), who was from a smaller country, who most likely used roids but was never caught in those days, who when he came to training, most of the time was sitting down on the track, every half hour or so got up to do something. He went to the Olympics, sometimes even made it to the second round, no, no medals. Then you have the complete opposite, a true training beast like the notorious Van De Walle, but he was an Olympic medal winner, even an Olympic champion. That is the difference between "participating in the Olympics" and "coming back with an Olympic medal". That difference was beyond my choice of the term "Olympic elite" athlete.

    "Work ethic" becomes a complex term as it is intertwined with psychological and motivational strength, but also with injury proneness, and professional statute as a sporter (is the athlete in some role that he can professionally train, or is he or she something that meanwhile has to hold a standard 9 to 5 job ?)

    When referring to the "Olympic athlete" I deliberately used the term "not normal" not because genetics is a stereotype but because there are truly things going on that cannot be properly explained with the simplified approaches explained in the videos which target a lay person audience. For example, a way that aerobic training and burning fat is explained to lay people is low intensity which you can sustain for a long time. Let's take a straightforward discipline and avoid judo where the nature of the fight and opponent may make one fight totally different from another fight. Therefore, let's take marathon running. People who in the Olympics win medals in the marathon. They run at an average speed of +20 km/h (+12.5 mph). Is this low intensity ?  Clearly not. 3000 m steeple, less than 8 minutes. Is this low intensity ?  Clearly not. But this has to be aerobic, no ? After all the anaerobic system would be exhausted in 45-90 seconds. So how is this possible ?  You try running at a speed of 20 km/h and see how long you can sustain this. Then, try to imagine doing this for >2 hrs. This is not normal. This is also not a mere effect of "work ethic". These people can sustain >85 % VO2max for hours, not normal. Some things develop in response to training, such as for example cardiac out put, left ventricular function, and of course lean body mass. That does, however, not explain the entire picture. When you look at some aerobic events, like cross-country skiing, and look at the champions, you will find a high proportion of remarkable genetics; not saying you cannot find exceptions, but overall ...  For example, you find total lung capacity that is often exceptional. That's not a mere function of training. You do not create large lungs by training. Large lungs allow exceptional minute ventilations. The minute ventilation does not mean much in the absence of low oxygen uptake, but in the presence of a trained body with high LBM, stroke volume, arterio venous difference, that high minute ventilation is going to come into play. The same applies for many factors which cannot be trained, or where training would not make much difference, such as in the case of ethnic predisposition. There's reason the final of an Olympic swimming final is populated by ethnically quite different looking people from the 100m sprint in track and field. "Work ethic" is not going to change much there, and the "stereotype" finds grounds in scientific basis. Not to say that some of it can't be overcome, but then rather as an exception instead of the rule.

    One of the big mistakes that has been made and is still being made in training of judo elite squads (and the obvious reason is the lack of scientific involvement) is a generalized training for the team. Usually does not work, although the effect of it not working is skewed in Japanese and Korean judoists for the simple reason that it does not matter too much for those dropping out because there are enough alternatives that can step in. In most countries that is not so, and what will then happen is that that specific weight category for years has someone who might dominate nationally but cannot make it internationally, but still remains in the squad. To put it simple, if every judoka would train like Van De Walle, every judoka would win Olympic medals ?  No. Many would never be able to train like that no matter how hard they would try, no matter what work ethic they might have. The ability to train is in itself a genetic advantage, so it's not only the outcome of the training which has a genetic component. Yesterday, a woman tried swimming the English Channel. Now she's dead. Why ?  Didn't she train for it ?  Of course, she did. Then why did she die while so many others did not, or alternatively would not have the ability to swim the English Channel. I know for 200% sure that no matter how hard I would train, I could never come even close to swimming the English Channel, and this merely on the base of genetics. Why did she die ?  They don't know. I suspect she might well have died as a consequence of severe arrithmia caused by electrolyte changes. Why ?  Because some people's physiological homeostatic responses fail to do what those systems can take in others. I mentioned cross-country skiing. I could not be even a mediocre cross-country skiier. I am that bad, and no matter how hard I would train  --yes, I could increase my level--   but I would still remain poor. Why ?  Because it is impossible for me to train in that even to transcend my serious genetic limitations. Here's just one. Cross-country skiing requires environmental conditions, namely snow. For there to be snow, the temperature has to be below a certain level. At that level, namely what we call 'cold' there are effects on physiological functioning. Physiological responses to cold are highly genetic and virtually untrainable. That is a peculiarity. You see, responses to heat are also genetically determined, but they are well trainable. In other words, one can train well for heat circumstances, but not for cold circumstances. Of course people diving in ice train for it, but ... those people are already genetically equipped for it, as someone who is not, drops out way before that because they can't withstand it, and training has virtually no effect. Consequently, people who are or even could be successful in cross-country skiing have to be sufficiently genetically equipped for their physiology to have the ability to adequately homeostatically respond to cold, an ability which I do not have due to genetics, end of story.

    In all this, judo is a strange animal because of the combination of systems it relies on in order to be successful. A judoka with exceptional strategic skills but little endurance and strength might be able to win a fight against a much stronger and better trained judoka, by surprising him, but what is the likelihood he would be able to pull that off in round two for a second time ?  Almost nihil. His contest will have been watched, taped, analyzed, and conclusions from that achieved by the coach and opponent of the next round. In running, those strategic opportunities are far less. If it is on the street like marathon, yes, some runners will do much better or much worse, depending on whether the trajectory is flat or not hilly. Other strategic opportunities are sudden acceleration to see who can follow or who can crack, but that's about it, apart from environmental conditions that might greatly differ depending on country and season. In a 100 m sprint, strategic opportunities are even less. The trajectory is never hilly, and always flat. Environmental conditions still play a role, such as wind, but no one does better in headwind obviously. Humidity and temperature plays a role, not just in physiological responses but also in injury proneness (the pulled hamstring). Strategy is limited and not entirely under one's control, and limited to things such as the lane one is running in; one can't change that but certain lanes are considered better than others, in particular when there is a curb, like in the 200m, due to seeing the others run and due to which lanes is first entering and coming out of the curb. In, judo, the strategic component is much higher, and so is the sometimes incommensurable factor of the referee. Track and field has photo finish, judo until recently had no such thing. The trajectory which two competitive judoka do during a contest has indefinite possibilities, and so are the responses. In a 100 m sprint, the trajectory is set, and the possibilities limited to slow or fast start slow or fast ending, but those are more genetically determined than strategically. The distance is simply too short to intentionally start slow and end fast; in other words, those who do, do so because that are their limits.

    Watched a team in preparation for the last Olympics. There were ropes hanging from the ceiling in the dojo. Saw the -60 kg Olympic hopefuls with a big smile running towards the ropes climb up the rope just with their hands, down without stepping on the ground, up again, down, again, up again and down again. Climbing up the ropes just by your hands three times without stepping on the ground. You see a +100 kg guy do that ?  You see a -100 kg or even a -90 kg guy doing that ?  Sure, you might know some exception, but normally, no way. Genetics. Genetics, that can't be overcome since the -100 kg guy cannot possibly cut weight to -60 kg. The -60 kg may be 5'3 whereas the -100kg my stand 6'5. Can't be overcome by work ethic. What can be overcome by work ethic is how that particular -100 or +100kg player performs on ropes in comparison to other players of the same weight, assuming that they have a similar proportion of lean body mass and other similar anthropometric characteristics.

    Genes are crucial, but I would not call it "gene lottery". Just the fact that someone has superbe genes do not make him or her Olympic athlete, but it is not a mere issue of work ethic. It can also be an issue of interest. My ex was an excellent slalom skier and runner, but she just hated competition and did not want to do it, period. Then there is the issue of choice of sport. What if Aleksandr Karelin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Karelin) one day would have decided to compete in judo. There's a great likelihood he would have become one of the most successful and unbeatable judo champions, but ... he did not enter judo. His choice. So, another factor besides genetics and work ethic ...

    So, certainly, lots of things to say, lots of things to add, but ... no lay person can in here still see the wood for the trees, and that is what I wanted to avoid with my initial post. I wanted to provide a simple usable thing, caveat for those which I called "not normal" such as those who represented the elite among the elite, and this for reasons I hope to have clarified somewhat better now.

    That said, you do pack a lot of valuable information in these posts. Thank you! 

    To my amazement at the time, I do remember french sprinters, being told they where not allowed to smoke on the track. As well as seeing Ben J. smoking cigars after training. Drugs and genetics allowed for this type of bad health behaviours. 

    That said, you've made some wonderful points: (1) a very good argument for sport selection, with genetics and interest as guiding principles, for elite athletic performance (2) individualize training for certain body types. This second point is something local coaches can bite on and use accordingly. Strength to weight ratios goes up as you go down in body weight, so why should we all use the same group exercise? The 85-90 kilo is not a bad place to start.


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    Patrol1985

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    Re: Off-the-tatami physical training tips for ambitious judoka

    Post by Patrol1985 on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:44 pm

    I agree with everything you've written CK and I had been aware of it. Like I said - genetics is an important factor. The reason I highlighted your first post was because people who are interested in the subject know that what you initially wrote was just an abbreviated way of putting things.

    However, it's the "common folk" I am afraid about. They may be quick to read the post and without further investigation think "Bah! It's all about genetics, why bother with going to judo classes then"

    The matter of "genetics" is not binary. There aren't only two sets of genes, where one predestines you to be an olympic champion, whereas the other makes you an average person. There is a whole scale of "grey" in between which applies in exactly the same way. Using an example to clarify things: I know there are people in my club who can and always will defeat me in shiai no matter how hard I train. Those same guys would never get past round 2 in any national event, not talking about international.

    So when you say "you have to have good genetics to be an olympic champion", most will agree, acknowledge and probably forget about it and move on, because most people don't seriously consider becoming an olympian.

    However, by analogy you can also say "you have to have good genetics to be on top of your group". I can easily imagine a REALLY clumsy kid and a REALLY athletic kid by nature, none of whom will ever go past local contests, but the latter one will ALWAYS be ahead due to the genetic difference. Unlike becoming an olympian, this may become a huge demotivator. Who likes a perspective of "being unable to be the best even in their own group regardless of how much they train"?

    I'm not saying we should lie to people. I'm saying that judo is about more than winning shiai - a fact you are pefectly aware of. Why demotivate people from the get go by saying that without genetics they will never excel? It's true, they may not, but maybe they will discover other, more valuable aspects of judo if they just join (like I did).

    If someone told me I would never be any good at judo due to the "genetic coin toss" and really convinced me I would have never bothered to go to a judo class and having even as inexperienced perspective as I do now I can say I would miss A LOT.

    Old Chestnut

    Posts : 35
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Off-the-tatami physical training tips for ambitious judoka

    Post by Old Chestnut on Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:07 pm

    Patrol1985 wrote:However, it's the "common folk" I am afraid about. They may be quick to read the post and without further investigation think "Bah! It's all about genetics, why bother with going to judo classes then"

    I'd be wary of thinking about other people as 'common folk'. Also if that's how they think, they don't belong in judo class.

    Patrol1985 wrote:Why demotivate people from the get go by saying that without genetics they will never excel?

    Is this that 'everyone is a winner' thing I've heard so much about? Understanding your own limitations is a good place to start improving yourself.
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    finarashi

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    Re: Off-the-tatami physical training tips for ambitious judoka

    Post by finarashi on Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:36 pm

    Patrol1985 wrote:I agree with everything you've written CK and I had been aware of it. Like I said - genetics is an important factor. The reason I highlighted your first post was because people who are interested in the subject know that what you initially wrote was just an abbreviated way of putting things.

    However, it's the "common folk" I am afraid about. They may be quick to read the post and without further investigation think "Bah! It's all about genetics, why bother with going to judo classes then"

    The matter of "genetics" is not binary. There aren't only two sets of genes, where one predestines you to be an olympic champion, whereas the other makes you an average person. There is a whole scale of "grey" in between which applies in exactly the same way. Using an example to clarify things: I know there are people in my club who can and always will defeat me in shiai no matter how hard I train. Those same guys would never get past round 2 in any national event, not talking about international.

    So when you say "you have to have good genetics to be an olympic champion", most will agree, acknowledge and probably forget about it and move on, because most people don't seriously consider becoming an olympian.

    However, by analogy you can also say "you have to have good genetics to be on top of your group". I can easily imagine a REALLY clumsy kid and a REALLY athletic kid by nature, none of whom will ever go past local contests, but the latter one will ALWAYS be ahead due to the genetic difference. Unlike becoming an olympian, this may become a huge demotivator. Who likes a perspective of "being unable to be the best even in their own group regardless of how much they train"?

    I'm not saying we should lie to people. I'm saying that judo is about more than winning shiai - a fact you are pefectly aware of. Why demotivate people from the get go by saying that without genetics they will never excel? It's true, they may not, but maybe they will discover other, more valuable aspects of judo if they just join (like I did).

    If someone told me I would never be any good at judo due to the "genetic coin toss" and really convinced me I would have never bothered to go to a judo class and having even as inexperienced perspective as I do now I can say I would miss A LOT.
    I just read an Finnish analysis of why swedes produce more young hockey players that get drafted to NHL than Finland. the response given was that
    - they are more conserned of individual development than group development
    - they encourage big 'clumsy' guys to continue training as they typically mature slower than the faster smaller guys but after years of traing will surpass the others.

    I have personally discussed this with several coaches and some Judoka improve even into their late twenties at reasonable rate. Some seem to plateau. So level at somepoint does not tell what is your final level.


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    afulldeck

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    Re: Off-the-tatami physical training tips for ambitious judoka

    Post by afulldeck on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:02 am

    Patrol1985 wrote:I'm not saying we should lie to people. I'm saying that judo is about more than winning shiai - a fact you are pefectly aware of. Why demotivate people from the get go by saying that without genetics they will never excel? It's true, they may not, but maybe they will discover other, more valuable aspects of judo if they just join (like I did).

    If someone told me I would never be any good at judo due to the "genetic coin toss" and really convinced me I would have never bothered to go to a judo class and having even as inexperienced perspective as I do now I can say I would miss A LOT.


    This is a very important point. Shiai is not, and never has been the pinnacle of judo. Its the pinnacle of competition perhaps (otherwise known as disco judo.....thanks ck..). Judo is more that that, its an education, its physical activity, learning to endure, creating a moral framework, its an art, its science, etc. There are many folks who conflate competition with the latter.



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    Patrol1985

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    Re: Off-the-tatami physical training tips for ambitious judoka

    Post by Patrol1985 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:45 am

    Old Chestnut wrote:I'd be wary of thinking about other people as 'common folk'.

    I know the expression was not the best, that's why I put it in quotation marks. I meant people "not yet interested in judo", I meant no disrespect.

    Old Chestnut wrote:Also if that's how they think, they don't belong in judo class.

    I disagree. The way people think often results from what they hear from more experienced ones. If an experienced person convinced a beginner that without genetics their training was pointless, I wouldn't be surprised about the beginner quitting judo. It would be a logical thing to do.

    Old Chestnut wrote:Is this that 'everyone is a winner' thing I've heard so much about? Understanding your own limitations is a good place to start improving yourself.

    Well, aren't they? Societies world-wide get more obese in general with each decade. In Poland, many people think that if you do sports such as judo, but don't consider making it your career, you are "wasting your time". They mock you. Given those circumstances, everyone who moves their butt to a dojo on a regular basis is a winner in my eyes. I don't care if they struggle to do yoko-ukemi when everyone around them perfects their uchi-mata.

    finarashi wrote:I just read an Finnish analysis of why swedes produce more young hockey players that get drafted to NHL than Finland. the response given was that
    - they are more conserned of individual development than group development
    - they encourage big 'clumsy' guys to continue training as they typically mature slower than the faster smaller guys but after years of traing will surpass the others.

    I have personally discussed this with several coaches and some Judoka improve even into their late twenties at reasonable rate. Some seem to plateau. So level at somepoint does not tell what is your final level.

    This is another reason why I don't support assuming what someone may or may not achieve, even if in 99,9% of situations the assumptions are true.

    afulldeck wrote:This is a very important point. Shiai is not, and never has been the pinnacle of judo. Its the pinnacle of competition perhaps (otherwise known as disco judo.....thanks ck..). Judo is more that that, its an education, its physical activity, learning to endure, creating a moral framework, its an art, its science,  etc. There are many folks who conflate competition with the latter.

    Thank you for the comment.
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Off-the-tatami physical training tips for ambitious judoka

    Post by afulldeck on Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:06 am

    Patrol1985 wrote:
    Old Chestnut wrote:I'd be wary of thinking about other people as 'common folk'.

    I know the expression was not the best, that's why I put it in quotation marks. I meant people "not yet interested in judo", I meant no disrespect.

    Old Chestnut wrote:Also if that's how they think, they don't belong in judo class.

    I disagree. The way people think often results from what they hear from more experienced ones. If an experienced person convinced a beginner that without genetics their training was pointless, I wouldn't be surprised about the beginner quitting judo. It would be a logical thing to do.

    Old Chestnut wrote:Is this that 'everyone is a winner' thing I've heard so much about? Understanding your own limitations is a good place to start improving yourself.

    Well, aren't they? Societies world-wide get more obese in general with each decade. In Poland, many people think that if you do sports such as judo, but don't consider making it your career, you are "wasting your time". They mock you. Given those circumstances, everyone who moves their butt to a dojo on a regular basis is a winner in my eyes. I don't care if they struggle to do yoko-ukemi when everyone around them perfects their uchi-mata.


    I feel sorry for folks who think that sport for other than a career is a waste of time. I would counter that pure devotion to the exclusion of everything else is the true waste of time and by extension your life. We are creatures that need some as semblance of balance to enjoy life; meaning we need exercise to harden and strengthen the body, mindful pursuit to strength the brain, career pursuits to support our life dreams, relationship pursuits to support our soul. I think judo helps in most if not all of those domains. Hardly seems like a waste of time to me.


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    Tai-Jutsu

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    Re: Off-the-tatami physical training tips for ambitious judoka

    Post by Tai-Jutsu on Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:16 am

    Bodyweigt, Kettlebell and some Barbell progressive resitence training, Yoga, some anerobic cardio, crosstraining in weapons and striking and hitting the mats. Some idea of decent nutrician.

    Those are in easy reach for most foks as for info, training, availability, not to hard to leanr how to plug them all in and out ect.

    More in depth nutrition knowledge, periodical restoritive and preevent messauge and qualified strength coaching (using the Oly lifts) can up the game from there.

    By uping the game though I'm just talking about supplental and auxilery training as Draeger phrased it in Judo:Training Methods.

    Nothing replaces training in your event and drills made up of elements of that event.


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